FOSS gamedev and creative worlds

Ideas can't be copyrighted, but they can be patented. And Mojang wouldn't have to trick the court, they operate on legal precedent. The precedent most recent and relevant to this situation being Apple vs. Samsung for the "look and feel" of iOS. And they don't have to try to make MC more appealing, they've always had more players.

mauvebic wrote:Ideas can't be copyrighted, but they can be patented.

And I'm sure you understand fully well how completely irrelevant that is, Mr. Troll.

onpon4 wrote:And I'm sure you understand fully well how completely irrelevant that is, Mr. Troll.

lol, is everyone who disagrees with you a troll? (or perhaps spreading FUD). It's not my fault your brainwashing makes it easy to point out every contradiction and bending of the truth you post.

last I checked patent litigation is as real as copyright litigation.

onpon4 wrote:

mauvebic wrote:Ideas can't be copyrighted, but they can be patented.

And I'm sure you understand fully well how completely irrelevant that is, Mr. Troll.

It is very much relevant to the discussion at hand, onpon. I wish you'd just look at other perspectives too. The world is round, not flat, and there are infinite angles to look at it from.

The point that lobbying the court, is well at least agreed by the both of you I guess. So I'm cool.
The point that ides can't be copywrited is also agreed by the both of you.
The idea that Minecraft can use illicit means, but will not because is doesn't need to, is also agreed.

SO WHY THE ZWIZ CAN YOU NOT GET TOGETHER?

I'm not a mod, but I don't like personal wars like these either.

[spoiler]#sarcasm. This coming from a guy who was temp-banned on a certain other community for flaming. So, yeah[/spoiler]

mauvebic wrote:lol, is everyone who disagrees with you a troll? (or perhaps spreading FUD). It's not my fault your brainwashing makes it easy to point out every contradiction and bending of the truth you post.

last I checked patent litigation is as real as copyright litigation.

You've proven yourself multiple times to be a troll. You often make incredibly asinine contradicting posts clearly intended to start arguments, and you repeat the same crap several times a thread. To top it off, you act high and mighty while you do this. I stopped taking you seriously a long time ago. You, not "everyone who disagrees with me". I don't use the word "troll" lightly.

Patents are irrelevant because there are no such patents. It's not a common practice for game developers to get patents. Software idea patents are normally held by patent trolls and big software companies like Microsoft. Any patents covering Minetest would likely 1) not be owned by Mojang, and 2) also cover Minecraft.

onpon4 wrote:posts clearly intended to start arguments

Like when you told a modder you wouldn't use his mod because you don't like his license?

onpon4 wrote:you repeat the same crap several times

The funny part is I warned cornernote he could expect to hear your views before he even posted this thread :p

onpon4 wrote:you act high and mighty while you do this.

lol, seen your own post history?

onpon4 wrote: I stopped taking you seriously a long time ago.

You're certainly free to ignore me, and i'm free to keep debunking the BS you post.

onpon4 wrote:Patents are irrelevant because there are no such patents. It's not a common practice for game developers to get patents.

Not quite the same as stating that patents are irrelevant (context and accuracy are important).

onpon4 wrote: Software idea patents are normally held by patent trolls and big software companies like Microsoft.

And you say i'm high and mighty :p I think everyone has a right to earn a living (and not just selling t-shirts).

onpon4 wrote:Any patents covering Minetest would likely 1) not be owned by Mojang, and 2) also cover Minecraft.

I think Mojang ignores Minetest because even though it's free we come nowhere close in terms of # of users. Those players who do come from MC complain about our lack of decent mobs (among other things).

I want to bring Desura into the discussion. The platform has a a higher share of Indie games, and the platform has some nice features for alpha and beta testing and funding.

Their community is much more focused on Indi games.

There is also an Open Source Client (Desurium). And i think they don't have a fee.

So before we go to steam we should try Desura.

mauvebic wrote:Like when you told a modder you wouldn't use his mod because you don't like his license?

Yeah, no. I didn't tell someone that a non-commercial license is proprietary to start an argument. I told them that because I felt it might have been accidental, or a misunderstanding of what free/libre and open source software is. I don't know why I figured this, and I turned out to be wrong, but that suspicion was the reason, not a desire to start an argument.

The funny part is I warned cornernote he could expect to hear your views before he even posted this thread :p

Oh how scary, my views! I should just censor all my views even when they're relevant, they're too scary for people to read! Of course, I didn't even bring up that Steam is proprietary and has DRM in this topic; someone else did, so your prediction was dead-wrong anyway.

Of course, that's not even what I was talking about. Posting your views doesn't make you a troll. It's that you aren't paying attention to what you're responding to, or posting some crap that anyone with a modicum of knowledge about the subject knows is crap, that makes me sure you're a troll.

onpon4 wrote:you act high and mighty while you do this.

lol, seen your own post history?

I do recall I asked you once to not drag a topic into an argument about free/libre software, and you responded that I should "get off my high horse". I responded that way (dismissively) in that example because just before that, you had already derailed a recent topic into an argument about free/libre software, and I wasn't interested in dealing with your trolling again.

Being dismissive of a troll is not the same thing as pretending your post is more knowledgeable than it is, or scolding other users about what they're posting.

Come to think of it, you're right: I've scolded you for trolling recently, and that's kind of hypocritical. Also very stupid. My mistake.

And you say i'm high and mighty :p I think everyone has a right to earn a living (and not just selling t-shirts).

Please, you're trying to tell me you're not a troll with a non-sequitur like this (and also your next quote, also a non-sequitur)? This was in response to a simple statement of fact that you just ignored, somehow reading a claim which wasn't there that patent trolls are unethical.

Of course, you're right. People deserve the right to earn a living by doing whatever they want. Like being a hitman, slave trade, attacking ships, and theft. Let's make all of these methods of making money legal!

I want to bring Desura into the discussion. The platform has a a higher share of Indie games, and the platform has some nice features for alpha and beta testing and funding.

I don't know much about Desura, but my instinct is Minetest should wait for that, too. Again, mostly people who play games,

onpon4 wrote:Yeah, no. I didn't tell someone that a non-commercial license is proprietary to start an argument. I told them that because I felt it might have been accidental, or a misunderstanding of what free/libre and open source software is. I don't know why I figured this, and I turned out to be wrong, but that suspicion was the reason, not a desire to start an argument.
[...]
I do recall I asked you once to not drag a topic into an argument about free/libre software, and you responded that I should "get off my high horse". I responded that way (dismissively) in that example because just before that, you had already derailed a recent topic into an argument about free/libre software, and I wasn't interested in dealing with your trolling again.

Im pretty sure that was the same topic. And one of many instances where you managed to squeeze in the FSF party line.

onpon4 wrote:Oh how scary, my views! I should just censor all my views even when they're relevant, they're too scary for people to read! Of course, I didn't even bring up that Steam is proprietary and has DRM in this topic; someone else did, so your prediction was dead-wrong anyway.

Of course, that's not even what I was talking about. Posting your views doesn't make you a troll. It's that you aren't paying attention to what you're responding to, or posting some crap that anyone with a modicum of knowledge about the subject knows is crap, that makes me sure you're a troll.

What I don't get is why you bother to preach that stuff here, most of these people already use open source software. Wouldn't that propaganda have more reach on a windows forum or a triple-A game forum?

onpon4 wrote:Of course, you're right. People deserve the right to earn a living by doing whatever they want. Like being a hitman, slave trade, attacking ships, and theft. Let's make all of these methods of making money legal!

I suppose you think proprietary software development will bring about the next holocaust too.

@onpon4: You really ARE Drasher's brother. I can not not see how you couldn't be persuasive. However, you are a GNU follower, and I guess every non radical open-source advocate is sick and tired of his beliefs. I use Xubuntu, and I don't like what he says about Ubuntu. So, yeah, RMS is kinda scary for us, and we prefer to keep him out of the discussion. And every RMS fan is seen as a fanatic. So...

@Mauvebic: Chill.

mauvebic wrote:Ideas can't be copyrighted, but they can be patented. And Mojang wouldn't have to trick the court, they operate on legal precedent. The precedent most recent and relevant to this situation being Apple vs. Samsung for the "look and feel" of iOS. And they don't have to try to make MC more appealing, they've always had more players.

Ideas can not be patented. Designs are patented.

Minecraft could patent the user interface, the texture style, etc.

IF they invented the voxel form, they could of patented it, but they didn't.

Citation

^ note that although that is the UK copyright service, it is the law in countries in the EEA and Berne Convention.

hoodedice wrote:You really ARE Drasher's brother.

Yeah, I am. I don't know much about her online presence, though, so I don't recognize any significance in this.

I guess every non radical open-source advocate is sick and tired of his beliefs. I use Xubuntu, and I don't like what he says about Ubuntu.

You mean about the recent adware addition, or Ubuntu not being a completely free/libre OS?

I agree with most of what is being said here that Minetest is not ready for Steam. When I switched from Minecraft to Minetest, when I first played it I was complaining about not having mobs. (My step-brother still doesnt like Minetest because of this reason). That was a big hit for me, then after a few months of continued Minecraft gameplay I finally started my first Minetest Singleplayer game. But even after I got over it and installed Simple Mobs, it was still buggy(0.4.5). REALLY buggy, The inventory was horrible, I used to get stuck in walls upon walking next to them and some other things that have been fixed. But even in its current state, it is buggy. The inventory is not perfect and I feel that the shaders could be optimized a bit more. But give it time and it will come. Not tomorow, not in a week, not even this year. I will take a guess and say that when we reach 0.5.5 we should be ready for a larger community, and then maybe the devs will consider Steam. That is my opinion about this topic.

hoodedice wrote:@Mauvebic: Chill.

Dude, when you've been playing minetest for 3yrs and using linux for over a decade, come back and tell me you're not sick of hearing about proprietary this, "M$" and google that :p I've never seen a crowd with such a constant need for reassurance and validation, i don't think windows and apple users sit around and discuss the evils of open source, redhat and canonical on a near-daily basis :p The ideological stuff just wears thin after a while.

rubenwardy wrote:Ideas can not be patented. Designs are patented.

Minecraft could patent the user interface, the texture style, etc.

IF they invented the voxel form, they could of patented it, but they didn't.

Im sure if we were any kind of threat to MC they could find a way :P Though if my server logs are any indication (same users logging in from different countries [proxies or bots], same ips logging in with dozens of names and people stealing other people's names) we won't need MC to ruin MT. Makes you appreciate MC's centralized accounts :p

Sorry to raise the topic from the dead, but to get more players, but not too much, and a pretty small n@@b5/kids proportion, isn't it possible to release Minetest on Greenlight but only Linux client/server ?
Linux users are more "this is beta, expect bugs and content in development" aware, and there are more developpers proportionnally than in Windows players I believe.
This would add more players, more devs, without having 1000s of kids coming on public servers bitching about "where are f*cking mobs ?", "omg lag", "that game s*cks so bad, I can't even craft *whatever stuff from MC only*" and destroy game image in weeks (or even days).
Then when mobs will be added etc...add Windows client/server.

For the patent/copyright problem, I think that maybe change default texture pack could help, because with default apparearance, it surely looks a LOT like MC. Maybe a BD/cartoon look (I love BDcraft pack), or VanessaE more realistic look.

When it will look less than MC it will be harder to sue, because hey, playing a guy that break blocks in an 8-bit look reminds me a lot Mario Bros, Nintendo should sue them ! Plus other free alternatives would look like a lot more MC and they would get sued 1st.

Just my 2 cents. (hope that I won't start a new war so if you have to reply please be gentle).

Mikerhinos wrote:Sorry to raise the topic from the dead, but to get more players, but not too much, and a pretty small n@@b5/kids proportion, isn't it possible to release Minetest on Greenlight but only Linux client/server ?
Linux users are more "this is beta, expect bugs and content in development" aware, and there are more developpers proportionnally than in Windows players I believe.
This would add more players, more devs, without having 1000s of kids coming on public servers bitching about "where are f*cking mobs ?", "omg lag", "that game s*cks so bad, I can't even craft *whatever stuff from MC only*" and destroy game image in weeks (or even days).
Then when mobs will be added etc...add Windows client/server.

That's one reason it shouldn't be even added to Steam -- it's not going to happen anyway (costs money, hostile to free/libre software). We have a lot of "kids" on servers already, better not add too much of them at once.

Mikerhinos wrote:For the patent/copyright problem, I think that maybe change default texture pack could help, because with default apparearance, it surely looks a LOT like MC. Maybe a BD/cartoon look (I love BDcraft pack), or VanessaE more realistic look.

No, we can do our own textures if we want. It's not an exact copy. We are not trying to confuse players. A more realistic pack would look more appealing, maybe, but then it wouldn't be the default pack.

Mikerhinos wrote:When it will look less than MC it will be harder to sue, because hey, playing a guy that break blocks in an 8-bit look reminds me a lot Mario Bros, Nintendo should sue them ! Plus other free alternatives would look like a lot more MC and they would get sued 1st.

Minetest cannot be sued: it isn't an entity such as a company. Clones of Super Mario exist, they are legal if they don't use the same graphics. Minecraft developers never sued the developers of a "clone" that uses different game media.

Ok thanks for clarifying it for me :)

Not really.

Even if Minetest was released solely for linux on steam, a simple google would lead them to the official download page. With the Windows builds.

Jordach, what if the game was only visible to Linux users? That is the reaction we want.

rubenwardy wrote:Jordach, what if the game was only visible to Linux users? That is the reaction we want.

I would be fine with that. I use Linux, and anybody that uses Linux most likely will have some brains for figuring out their problems... Hopefully.

Not enough brains to use a real operating system though...

I troll

Or we could go with my dynamic block appearance idea, that makes the terrain look more smooth/realistic, while still being node-based - such would prevent anyone from being able to take legal action, because the idea is new.
But of course, everyone must have their ugly/blocky/rough terrain "fix", so don't expect that to ever happen.

I have over 200 games on Steam, and all my kids want to play is Minetest. It truly is better than most games on Steam. But I think Minetest could truly benefit from the exposure, and the Steam Workshops (we could better organize our mods and community developed stuff here) and maybe we could even play with other users by using Steam's friend system. At any rate there already is a Minetest Community on Steam. http://steamcommunity.com/groups/minetestc55
Join it if you want to support minetest getting added to Steam!
Steam is just too huge to ignore. It is where all pc/Linux gamers are going to go.

I discovered Minetest through PlayDeb, and I think that is probably a more suitable outlet for this game than Steam. Not that I think the game ought to be exclusive to that audience, but that I think it is better targeted toward the people who are more likely to appreciate MT versus Minecraft and be more inclined to participate in the community and perhaps contribute something to the game.

Can I bump this? Oh, just did it. Global accounts for the servers would be a lot better, due to the raising number of players who tend to cheat and/or break the rules. So, maybe global rules would be nice, and the server owner would decide will the player that is banned elsewhere, be banned on his server. Steam accounts might be the best global accounts available.

lisacvuk wrote:Can I bump this? Oh, just did it. Global accounts for the servers would be a lot better, due to the raising number of players who tend to cheat and/or break the rules.

If such a "feature" is implemented, it has to stay optional. This is not Minecraft.

lisacvuk wrote:Steam accounts might be the best global accounts available.

A system where you can only log in through proprietary software, taking ~20 seconds to log in, is the best system now?

lisacvuk wrote:Steam accounts might be the best global accounts available.

Calinou wrote:A system where you can only log in through proprietary software, taking ~20 seconds to log in, is the best system now?

And what happens to my rights as a server operator? Does Steam hold priority, and can they shut my server down? And the accounts I decide to ban versus their blacklist? Is this legal according to the GPL? Definitely not with GPLv3, since it prevents DRM from being uncircumventable by law. Will all the mods require Steam approval? Will Steam make mods unusable or subject them to a kill switch? Will it be possible to play the game offline? Do we really want Steam to take the developers, and server operators, and users, rights away?

I don't think that Steam is the right place for MT, but perhaps another (open source) service?

(we (INNOVATION-Plex) are thinking about making similar services...)

benrob0329 wrote:I don't think that Steam is the right place for MT, but perhaps another (open source) service?

What about just offering it for download (as with GOG)?

hmmm steam might not be the right place for minetest. it would be nice to see some sort of installer and/or launcher.