[Server] Just Test Tribute

[Fixerol]

Ok, so this is intentional, I'm fine with it.

I have a suggestion, add 3-4 second timeout to /spawn to make it harder: you stop, type /spawn, wait 3 seconds, teleport to spawn (if you move during that wait time teleportation will be canceled).

[Wuzzy]

Some comments:

- Crushing furnace ignores protection. Everyone can take away everything, even if it is in a protected area.
- Mobs drop “fresh” bones for some reason but IMO this is pointless since mobs don't respawn and are not able to collect their own bones
- Snow is heavily overpriced at 25 gold ingots / snow. At this price I'd say it is impossible to craft ice without going crazy (just do some calculations). Are there other ways to obtain snow?
- It seems at the moment it is impossible to obtain new flowers since all flowers have been privatized and are not for sale. Or will new flowers spawn? Or is there some other legit way to obtain them?
- What's worse, nobody seems to sell dyes at the moment, which is important for a couple of crafts
- Who is that “justtest” user, anyway?

More comments:
- It it rather difficult to get a foothold on this server. That's what makes it interesting
- Basically just like the old Just Test which was notable for its harsh environment (almost only stone and water). But all the crazy cobblestone ruins are missing … for now. ;-)
- Holy shit, this server can seriously eat away your time if you don't watch the clock
- I like the vending machines. They helped me to build my bones bungalow (coordinates: X=80, Z=5); without them it would have taken much longer
- Some items are not really self-explanationary. Like the ... city block? Also, crushing furnace, bandages, cursed stone, etc. I think I understoof most of the non-default items after a bit of experimentation but I don't know where to look up stuff.
- The spawn area is made out of non-pointable stone bricks. WTF? Is that your way to make blocks indestructible? There are better ways to make blocks indestructible, see here: http://dev.minetest.net/Mod_interoperab ... ible_nodes


Overall, very nice server although with some “Gotchas”. I usually don't play on servers as I prefer singleplayer but this server seems to have changed my attitude.

[Wuzzy]

I disapprove of the use of the mod “chat_anticurse”. I don't believe that there is such a thing as a “bad” word. If you disagree, I am excited to hear about any scientific study which shows that cursing, using “bad” words, and the like is harmful to kids or anyone or a serious problem in our society.
Even if that's true (which I highly doubt), the mod is very poorly programmed, as it is based on the assumption that all people are meaning everything literally. Of course the mod has no understanding of such things as context, metaphors, irony, quotations, other valid meanings of the listed words, and so on, so there are going to be lots of false alerts.

For all players which suffer from this mod, here is the complete list of “bad” words (case-insensitive) which may get you kicked:

• ass
• dick
• penis
• pussy
• horny
• bitch
• bitche
• sex
• fuck
• arsehole
• cunt
• cum
• еба
• бля
• жоп
• хyй
• член
• пизд
• возбуд
• возбyж
• сперм
• бляд
• блять
• секс

This list seems rather arbitrary. In fact, it looks like it is mostly only based on lag01's personal opinion, I can't see a real logic here. Other people would have created other lists which would be equally arbitrary.

Long story sort: Please remove chat_anticurse, it is broken by design, annoying and based on false fears and misunderstanding of language. This mod should not be used on any server.

PS: George Carlin in “7 Dirty Words”:
http://youtu.be/FMkNsMMvrqk
:-)

[843jdc]

Unless you really want to start seeing chat filled with messages from little kids telling their 'babe' what they are doing, leave the mod in. Better yet, expand it to other languages. Spanish would be nice.

Though players quickly learn to get around it, when players run afoul of the mod and get kicked, that gives them notice that explicit sex chat will not be tolerated. So when the admin logs in and bans the players for a week or so, they have no valid reason to ask ,"wut did i do?"

[Fixerol]

Anticurse is here because of the kids, kids already swear a lot btw :/

[GoldFireUn]

TLDR: don't remove chat_anticurse.

Registered because I felt I had to say something.

chat_anticurse gets my +1 vote. In fact, without it I would be *this* much closer to modifying my client to add an /ignore command (something I've done before, and I've kept the notes around). (In fact I might eventually do that anyway -- the ability to ignore certain types of communication/certain people is probably the best thing since the ability to communicate in the first place -- just my personal opinion.)

If you disagree, I am excited to hear about any scientific study which shows that cursing, using “bad” words, and the like is harmful to kids or anyone or a serious problem in our society.

The concept of foul language, which should not be spoken, has existed for thousands of years and is present in most cultures (AFAIK). Any so-called scientific study that purported to show that it might not be bad for society would first have to presume that society never had any valid reason for banning it in the first place. A quite arrogant assumption, in my totally humble, not-arrogant-at-all-opinion. As for whether there are any studies that show that it *is* harmful -- even if such studies existed (and they do, in anecdotal form) -- they would have no power to convince because of the shear number of variables involved. In any case, foul language is a *symptom* of societal problems, *not* (primarily) their cause. (Though in fact foul language can be both at once.)

Anyway, here's my anecdote: I heard an uncle tell a story once about a guy who got old and senile, and it got to the point were his mind was gone. He could only say (generally) two words: f*ck and sh*t. It showed what he had cared most about in life (so my uncle said -- you decide how true it is), and it was an embarrassment to the man's family. But my uncle (who tended to say bad words in public up till now) said that after he heard that story, he decided to clean up his talk -- he didn't want that to happen to him.

And I don't want it to happen to me, either. So please, let's not remove chat_anticurse, the removal of which would be tantamount to an *invitation* for people to come on the server and have s*x in OPEN CHAT. (Already happened at least once, in Spanish.) I still remember the days of the old Just Test server, when there were, on occasion, *multiple* players whose sole purpose in life, it seemed, was to come on the game and curse/s*x out the whole server.

Apologies in advance for the wall of text.

[GoldFireUn]

edub is griefing the city!

(sorcerykid is busy protecting the grief in order to prevent edub from continuing to build the bridge.)



Showing the grief covering a major road:

[Wuzzy]

Long story short:
New argument for deletion: The mod is broken by design and kicks innocent players. Therefore, get rid of it.

Long story long:
I am not concerned about this mod not being able to detect certain “bad” words or to detect attempts to evade the mod altogether.
The bigger, technical problem I have with the mod are false positives.
Frankly, the mod is broken by design since it is WAY too primitive.

You may get kicked although you did not say anything “wrong”.
If you say any of the words on this list, but in a completely different context or meaning, or as a quote, you still get kicked. The script is simply too stupid to read the actual meaning in human communication.
The core problem of this mod is the complete disregard of the fine details of the English language.
It simply checks if a certain string of characters occours in text, but this approach is way too limited. It does not consider context, metaphors, “reading between the lines”, sarcasm, quotes, acronyms, proper names, and so on.
Let me give some examples of harmless chat lines which will get you kicked:

If you say “You must not say ‘fuck’ here.”, you get kicked.
If you say “ass i was saying ...” (typo), you get kicked.
If you say “Dick Cheney”, you get kicked. “Dick” is also a common family name.
If you say “i hav a cute little pussy cat”, you get kicked.

Many of the listed English words are too ambigious to universally see them as “bad” words (if we pretend for a second the concept of “bad” words is actually true).
Here are some Wikipedia pages giving some examples of different accepted meanings of those suppesedly “bad” words:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ass
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pussy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pussy_(disambiguation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horny
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitch

The strangest word on the list of forbidden words is “bitche”. According to Wikipedia, Bitche is a French commune: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitche
Urban Dictionary has NOTHING for “bitche”: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bitche
Looks like someone meant “bitches” but made a typo.

False positives are a core problem of this mod, even if you fully accept that “bad” words are bad.
This problem can not be easily overcome, as it would require a deep linguistic analysis of the text, and it would still make false positives. To even get the slightest chance to get anywhere with this mod, you would have to learn some basics about Natural language processing which is a huge field. The mod code would explode; it would be a crazy amount of work to implement, if it is even possible. And even that would not be enough since the mod would be unable to detect context and communication outside of the chat. The best the mod could do are heuristics which of course means false-positives can not be excluded.
Besides, why putting so much work in a mod only because there is a tiny list of words you disagree of? Such work would be better in mods which actually add something to gameplay.

As for the discussion on the concept of “bad” words themselves: Maybe I will open a thread in Off Topic in which I debunk the poor arguments you made so far.

[843jdc]

It is a simple mod. It probably only took the author (lag?) about 30 minutes to make.

Yes. There are false positives. When you log back in after being kicked, players laugh at you. It is funny. Then you have to THINK before you type so as not to trigger the mod again.

I greatly prefer not to see chat filled with s*x chat. Though most players that do it have never done it in rl and think that kissing a girl gets her PG :/ Reading the unfiltered words would be much worse than seeing spaced out or otherwise mangled words. IMHO.

I think that we need a soap mod. When the anti_curse mod is triggered, it triggers the soap mod to "wash your mouth out with soap" by temporarily revoking your chat priv. Say for 5 min haha. Ok, maybe for 2 min because the player might have been chatting about their cute cat xD

[maikerumine]

I love the soap mod idea. :)
Server ?lag" was anticheat. I need to fix

[Fixerol]

It was not anticheat lag, it was network problem itself, ping was up to 10 seconds at times on both servers, it went back to normal later.

[maikerumine]

edub is griefing the city!

(sorcerykid is busy protecting the grief in order to prevent edub from continuing to build the bridge.)



Showing the grief covering a major road:

Edub has been limited.

[BlueFireIceUn]

I should be unbanned cause there is already a week passed since I got banned but still not unbanned

[edub]

Good luck with that BlueFireUn. maikerumine is an ass hat. He banned me before I could even build anything on his server. And they wonder why the lava made it's way towards spawn... If he looks closer there are many many griefers in his little circle of friends. lol. best of luck keep a lid on this server.
-edub

[edub]

Quite the admin that griefs his own server. * face palm *

[maikerumine]

Quite the admin that griefs his own server. * face palm *

You broke the no griefing rule, you payed the price. :)

You are not special, this punishment has been handed out to others, and I imagine many more.

Next time read the rules and obey them.

[Wuzzy]

I can confirm first hand that edub has built over properties of others and building some sort of sky road and a huge sky tower (1×1) at spawn. I was on the server when this happened. But most of that stuff has been mined away, luckily.

Other news:

• Perimeter Road has been completed (plus some other roads), together with a complete railroad system
• The lava at spawn has now be contained by sorcerykid. I don't know where it came from but maybe it is just a leftover from the old just test server. Not sure.
• Some player called “Administrator” (not actually admin. Surprise!) obtained a suspious high amount of protector blocks, nyan cats, gravel and dirt after only 2 days of playing.
• The Cobble Crusher has been opened (“East” of spawn), with 2 public crushing furnaces.
• Public Bones Farm has been built. Monsters spawn there which can be “farmed” for their bones and other loot
• Rnd's monopoly on flowers and dyes has been broken! The Farm of Sharing (“East” of spawn) has been extended by a flower section where anyone is free to pick up flowers and spread them over the world. :-)
  Only 3 different species at the moment, but together with coal this is enough to craft all 15 dyes :P

[AndDT]

Maikerumine, can you explain whether fresh bones left by dead monsters are bug or feature? It annoys to wait nm minutes to grab them.

[Wuzzy]

I agree with AndDT, it annoys me, too. On the other hand, changing this will make obtaining bones much easier.

Also, the infotexts of monster bones sometimes are buggy, like “old bones” repeated twice or stuff like that.

[maikerumine]

I can confirm first hand that edub has built over properties of others and building some sort of sky road and a huge sky tower (1×1) at spawn. I was on the server when this happened. But most of that stuff has been mined away, luckily.

Other news:

• Perimeter Road has been completed (plus some other roads), together with a complete railroad system
• The lava at spawn has now be contained by sorcerykid. I don't know where it came from but maybe it is just a leftover from the old just test server. Not sure.
• Some player called “Administrator” (not actually admin. Surprise!) obtained a suspious high amount of protector blocks, nyan cats, gravel and dirt after only 2 days of playing.
• The Cobble Crusher has been opened (“East” of spawn), with 2 public crushing furnaces.
• Public Bones Farm has been built. Monsters spawn there which can be “farmed” for their bones and other loot
• Rnd's monopoly on flowers and dyes has been broken! The Farm of Sharing (“East” of spawn) has been extended by a flower section where anyone is free to pick up flowers and spread them over the world. :-)
  Only 3 different species at the moment, but together with coal this is enough to craft all 15 dyes :P

Excellent work guys / gals! :D
Yes, that was left over from original jt server map.

I agree with AndDT, it annoys me, too. On the other hand, changing this will make obtaining bones much easier.

Also, the infotexts of monster bones sometimes are buggy, like “old bones” repeated twice or stuff like that.

Yes, Will fix the info text whoops!

And yes AndDT, they are intended to have timeout so it makes it more difficult to wait to retrieve your stash. ;-)


ALSO:

It is confirmed, the "Administrater was cheating and somehow getting free items without any mining, SAME as life / cleanerpro, therefore that account is locked out and properties will be destroyed.
It is a shame, as he is a very good builder. :(

Bottom line, this is NOT an anarchy server, you cheat grief etc, then expect to have your stuff deleted.
We will NOT have a runaway server on my watch.

[AndDT]

Cyning spammed a lot. Ban him, please

[maikerumine]

Cyning spammed a lot. Ban him, please

DONE.

However I forsee a new name and ip which is impossible to ban. I changed timeout for voting to 120 seconds, that should work.

[Wuzzy]

I noticed a bug:
This server hurts you whenever you stand in a solid block. So far, so good. But the glitchyness of this idea begins when you stand near a high fence. You get damage from it, too.

It this is an attempt to implement suffocation, I think it is misguided. It seems it has been implemented by simply checking if the block is “walkable” (=players collide) and using damage_per_second, which deals damage whenever you *touch* the block. This would explain why it hurts players near fences, because they are technically “inside” the fence. I bet other nodebox-based nodes will have similar problems.
IMO suffocation should not be triggered by small nodes because players might be technically “inside” but it would be too weird to know where the “borders” of suffocating/non-suffocating damage are. So it's better to disable it completely for small nodes.

I have written a mod which implements suffocation in a more straightforward way:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15304

Here, suffocation a) reduces breath only and b) is only triggered for full solid 1×1×1 cubes (other checks are done as well), smaller things are ignored to avoid weirdness.

So, if this feature is what I think it is, I suggest to remove this buggy feature and replace it by the aforementioned mod.

[maikerumine]

I would like to address the whole "cheating" thing here, with all of your suggestions.

This is just one example of many. Notice the missing ores and no torches or tunnels?
Notice the huge quantities of materials?




As an admin, it is nearly impossible to keep up with "cheaters" and harder to detect unless one combs through debug text looking for "fishy" things. Frankly, much too much work and it is quite annoying actually.


So I propose allowing "cheating" with the exception of huge land grabs less than 500 meters from spawn. After 500 meters away, then you can build your cheated mega bases.

What do you all think?

There are a few things that cannot be stopped:

I.P. Switching
Teleporting
No-clipping
Flying
And long reach attack with auto eat.

I wish I had that client to understand how it all works.

Please let me know what you think about this.

[rnd]

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

Code: Select all

I propose allowing "cheating" with the exception of ...

I propose cheating but only after some "distance" from spawn, where "distance" is distance to nearest other server.

[maikerumine]

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

Code: Select all

I propose allowing "cheating" with the exception of ...

I propose cheating but only after some "distance" from spawn, where "distance" is distance to nearest other server.

Policing cheaters is nearly impossible to do. What do you propose?

[AndDT]

1) share debug.txt via (x)inetd/socat with other _trusted_ players,
2) grant them permission to ban other players
upgrade1) Drop all traffic from tor nodes

The best thought I caught in my head so far

[843jdc]

How can traffic from tor nodes be identified?

My policy on cheating can be found in the first post on the Cash's World forum.

[AndDT]

How can traffic from tor nodes be identified?

I mean tor exit nodes. They have their IP addresses

[843jdc]

I know what you meant. You seem to know a method of identifying TOR exit nodes without having to manually analyze the IP addresses using nmap or something.