[Mod] Bones [bones]

[rarkenin]

This is just my personal opinion, but I think we need a permission, something like `nobones` which can be granted to none, some, or all players.

[PilzAdam]

This is just my personal opinion, but I think we need a permission, something like `nobones` which can be granted to none, some, or all players.

That could be nice. What do others think?

[Sokomine]

How about a permission that allows players to change gamemode amongst those the server offers? Something not limited to the bones mod but useful for other mods as well. A server could offer anything from creative to PvP. There is enough room in Minetest worlds for all kind of players. A "nobones" priv would be too specific. Make it a more global solution that can be used by other mods as well. Even though that might be a small mod of its own. And please don't force players to play in a specific way (i.e. either full survival or full creative). I got Minecraft to run and was very annoyed by the monsters that where running around at night and kept interfering with my building. These creepers are like griefers on the loose...Minetest can do better than that. Make it (within the boundaries given by the server) the choice of the player.

[jojoa1997]

I say a nobones priv would be nice if it was added to the default. Then people could choose what they want.

[PilzAdam]

I say a nobones priv would be nice if it was added to the default. Then people could choose what they want.

No, I dont want to add it to default. Only server admins should use this.

[Chinchow]

How about a permission that allows players to change gamemode amongst those the server offers? Something not limited to the bones mod but useful for other mods as well. A server could offer anything from creative to PvP. There is enough room in Minetest worlds for all kind of players. A "nobones" priv would be too specific. Make it a more global solution that can be used by other mods as well. Even though that might be a small mod of its own. And please don't force players to play in a specific way (i.e. either full survival or full creative). I got Minecraft to run and was very annoyed by the monsters that where running around at night and kept interfering with my building. These creepers are like griefers on the loose...Minetest can do better than that. Make it (within the boundaries given by the server) the choice of the player.

I don't know what minecraft was thinking with creepers probably something like this
Guy one:Hey lets discourage griefing!
Guy two:Yeah and then make a mob that does it for them even in singleplayer
Guy one:Brilliant!

[jojoa1997]

How about a permission that allows players to change gamemode amongst those the server offers? Something not limited to the bones mod but useful for other mods as well. A server could offer anything from creative to PvP. There is enough room in Minetest worlds for all kind of players. A "nobones" priv would be too specific. Make it a more global solution that can be used by other mods as well. Even though that might be a small mod of its own. And please don't force players to play in a specific way (i.e. either full survival or full creative). I got Minecraft to run and was very annoyed by the monsters that where running around at night and kept interfering with my building. These creepers are like griefers on the loose...Minetest can do better than that. Make it (within the boundaries given by the server) the choice of the player.

I don't know what minecraft was thinking with creepers probably something like this
Guy one:Hey lets discourage griefing!
Guy two:Yeah and then make a mob that does it for them even in singleplayer
Guy one:Brilliant!

They should have a GUI to shut off certain mobs.

[Sokomine]

I don't know what minecraft was thinking with creepers probably something like this
Guy one:Hey lets discourage griefing!
Guy two:Yeah and then make a mob that does it for them even in singleplayer
Guy one:Brilliant!

*g* Right :) No need for griefers to do the work - they've been put out of work by npc :-)

[Edit] I won't mind if the bones mod is in default *if* it is the choice of each player if it's activated for that player or not.

[jmf]

I say a nobones priv would be nice if it was added to the default. Then people could choose what they want.

No, I dont want to add it to default. Only server admins should use this.

Agree. If there is a nobone priv that would be good.
Server admins sometimes carry stuff that shouldn't be in the hands of "normal" people (stuff like command blocks).
When an admin dies and his connection doesn't work any more he failed and someone got all the admin stuff.
If you don't want to have bones in your survival game, just grant yourself nobones, if you don't want it in the server,
set it as standard priv at joining.
If this will be implemeted, i would be for the mod.

[Casimir]

I say a nobones priv would be nice if it was added to the default. Then people could choose what they want.

That should be included in the bones mod itself.

This discussion brings an idea to my mind: A GUI for privs.
A lot of mods use them and even more could use privileges. You don't need to turn of and on certain mods themselves, don't need to delete them from minetest_game if you use privileges. They act a little bit like a settings menu.
So why don't make an ingame menu that provides easy access to them. You can keep track of all of them and don't need to type it all by hand.

So bones could be an optional thing without coding it in the default game, just privs added to the bones-mod. And when playing you press esc, click on "priv settings" and check "don't loose inventory at death".

[jojoa1997]

I say a nobones priv would be nice if it was added to the default. Then people could choose what they want.

That should be included in the bones mod itself.

This discussion brings an idea to my mind: A GUI for privs.
A lot of mods use them and even more could use privileges. You don't need to turn of and on certain mods themselves, don't need to delete them from minetest_game if you use privileges. They act a little bit like a settings menu.
So why don't make an ingame menu that provides easy access to them. You can keep track of all of them and don't need to type it all by hand.

So bones could be an optional thing without coding it in the default game, just privs added to the bones-mod. And when playing you press esc, click on "priv settings" and check "don't loose inventory at death".

+∞

[Iqualfragile]

I dont like this mod many people are nerd stacking(people who make a pole out of dirt,cobble,gravel or any other stuff)just to get the bones.I remember I was adventuring for some ores but then i die in a lava.Know my diamonds that i collected and also the ores are gone.For short I got to go to no

when you die in lava you are
a) imo supposed to loose your items
b) not loosing your items when this mod is in use, how did you manage to do that?

i dont realy get why it would be a problem when players die to get those bones, if they want to build a graveyard it might be handy…

and: you wont magicaly loose your items… they will be there for you to regather, you even have alot of time to get them before anyone else is allowed to take them.

at the moment it just does not matter if you care about your health or not, if you die you will just be beemed to the spawn and nothing happened.
if this is what you want then you can just remove the health-bar alltogether. (thats easily possible, just PLAY IN CREATIVE)

@all server-admins/mods: its a one-liner to add a check if you have the keepitems permission wich allows you to respawn with all your stuff, so there is no posibilty a griefer could get your items, it would also be quite simple to add a "whitelist" wich contains all your mod-stuff and to make that stay in your inventory.

[Sokomine]

That part where other players can get the stuff after 20 minutes or so might cause some trouble. Hostile players may kill others to steal their stuff. While just beeing respawned, that was more or less a nuiscance. If it gets default, there will be more work for mods to handle players that killed others and stole their belongings (or caused them even more time loss since they had to pick up their stuff).

[PilzAdam]

A minor update: If share_bones_time is set to 0 it is completly disabled. So server admins can disable this feature to prevent conflicts between players and there is still a challenge wich die.
If they want to completly disable the bones spawning they can just remove this mod from minetest_game.

[0gb.us]

Thats not a bug. Polite players can go underground to die so that other players dont have to make a funeral ;-)

A fair point. In that case, could the node that gets replaced by bones be added to the bones inventory? That way, rare blocks wouldn't be lost just because someone died to inside them, which often happens on laggy servers. If so, it should probably check if the node is buildable_to, so air, lava, and water don't end up in the bones inventory.

Yea, its better this way.

Better which way? Your comment sounds like it's better if bones can be harvested while they still have items in them, but Github says you switched the code to disallow that as I had suggested.

EDIT: Also, this sort of replacing the nodes could be used to vandalize people's property, even if the vandal has no interact privilege.

[PilzAdam]

Yea, its better this way.

Better which way? Your comment sounds like it's better if bones can be harvested while they still have items in them, but Github says you switched the code to disallow that as I had suggested.

I was refering to your posts. Sorry if I was unclear.

EDIT: Also, this sort of replacing the nodes could be used to vandalize people's property, even if the vandal has no interact privilege.

If people want to die to grief peoples homes. And its also not very easy to die inside a node.

[0gb.us]

If people want to die to grief peoples homes. And its also not very easy to die inside a node.

Okay, just bringing up potential issues. If you've already thought of this, and deemed it as not a threat, then that's fine with me.

EDIT: So many grammatical errors and left out words. I was distracted when I wrote it. Post fixed.

[Splizard]

Wow at the time of writing exactly 50% votes each.
I voted no as I don't like bones being a node I wouldn't mind if it was an
entity with the appearance of a dead player. Though I don't think that is possible yet...

[0gb.us]

Wow at the time of writing exactly 50% votes each.
I voted no as I don't like bones being a node I wouldn't mind if it was an
entity with the appearance of a dead player. Though I don't think that is possible yet...

I think it is possible actually, but too many entities causes lag for slow servers or clients.

In addition, as a node, it provides something that default Mine test is sorely lacking: a renewable solid non-flammable node to build with. In addition, building cemeteries would be more feasible with nodes rather than entities.

[0gb.us]

Okay, further testing showed some issues.

First, anything in the crafting grid is lost when you die. In the code, it looks like things in your crafting grid are supposed to be added to the bones' inventory, but for whatever reason, it doesn't work as expected.

Second, it turns out using bones for vandalism is viable after all. Try to break someone's locked chest, and stand where the chest is, before the server responds saying the chest is still there. Next, dump lava on your head. The chest keeps you safe if you stand still, but with short jumps, you can get the lava to kill you while you are considered to be in the chest, and the victim's locked chest and gear are destroyed. I tested this, and it CAN be done. I imaging something similar can be done with steel doors, but have not tested.

As you said, taking out large portions of buildings this way would take forever, but taking out large amounts of stored items is actually quite easy.

[PilzAdam]

Okay, further testing showed some issues.

First, anything in the crafting grid is lost when you die. In the code, it looks like things in your crafting grid are supposed to be added to the bones' inventory, but for whatever reason, it doesn't work as expected.

Fixed.

Second, it turns out using bones for vandalism is viable after all. Try to break someone's locked chest, and stand where the chest is, before the server responds saying the chest is still there. Next, dump lava on your head. The chest keeps you safe if you stand still, but with short jumps, you can get the lava to kill you while you are considered to be in the chest, and the victim's locked chest and gear are destroyed. I tested this, and it CAN be done. I imaging something similar can be done with steel doors, but have not tested.

As you said, taking out large portions of buildings this way would take forever, but taking out large amounts of stored items is actually quite easy.

Okay, seems like it needs some work.
What should happen if the player dies in an not buildable_to node? Should all items just be lost?

[Dopium]

If i remember correctly bad_command only updated the bones mod once, and yes the lava was an issue. One thing they did on gameboom server was had protected areas where you could only place lava or water in your protected area, i think redcrab has this aswell. However im not sure if many people want to run that feature on their server but it does work, either that or a update of the mod, awesome mod tho

[0gb.us]

Okay, seems like it needs some work.
What should happen if the player dies in an not buildable_to node? Should all items just be lost?

I've given this a lot of thought, and I'm not sure what should happen. Having the items completely disappear would be unacceptable, in my opinion.

One option might be to allow items to remain in the inventory in such cases, as the original bones plugin does. It's not a perfect solution, but it works until we find a better one. Most of the time, people won't be dying inside nodes unless the server is being laggy, so it shouldn't come up much. And when the server IS being laggy, perhaps that is what caused the death in the first place, and the player should be cut a break anyway.

I've also been thinking about items in the crafting grid. Perhaps the bones inventory should be expanded by nine to accommodate them? It could even be set up as a second inventory in the bones, and displayed as a centred row of nine, as nine does not divide by the width of the other rows, eight. Lately, I've found myself stashing things in my crafting grid so I can continue mining a bit longer, and with the current setup, most of the things in my crafting grid would be lost if I struck lava or an unexpected cave.

[Iqualfragile]

i think a nodebox looking like a skull would be great

[PilzAdam]

i think a nodebox looking like a skull would be great

c55 likes the textures.

[0gb.us]

Also, at least for now, the less nodeboxes we have, the better.

I'm not sure if anyone else is having this issue, but when I enter an area that has a lot of nodebox-using nodes, the client slows way down. Computers with more power than mine probably don't have this issue, but one of the great things about Minetest is that it runs well, even on weaker machines.

[rarkenin]

Okay, further testing showed some issues.

First, anything in the crafting grid is lost when you die. In the code, it looks like things in your crafting grid are supposed to be added to the bones' inventory, but for whatever reason, it doesn't work as expected.

Second, it turns out using bones for vandalism is viable after all. Try to break someone's locked chest, and stand where the chest is, before the server responds saying the chest is still there. Next, dump lava on your head. The chest keeps you safe if you stand still, but with short jumps, you can get the lava to kill you while you are considered to be in the chest, and the victim's locked chest and gear are destroyed. I tested this, and it CAN be done. I imaging something similar can be done with steel doors, but have not tested.

As you said, taking out large portions of buildings this way would take forever, but taking out large amounts of stored items is actually quite easy.

I think that this can also be done if you clear the area below the chest and burn your feet in lava. No awkward jumping.

[0gb.us]

Fixed several issues

* Increased bones inventory to accommodate full player main inventory and full player crafting grid, preventing lost items
* Altered bones formspec to accommodate this change
* Fixed error where bones would replace half a door, but the other half would remain in place
* Fixed issue where owned objects (locked chests and steel doors) could be removed by bones
* Fixed issue where nodes with inventories could be replaced by bones, which previously allowed chest inventories to be lost
* Added node drops for replaced node (excluding nodes that are buildable_to) to bones inventory, preventing lost nodes

Pull request: https://github.com/PilzAdam/bones/pull/1

[PilzAdam]

Fixed several issues

* Increased bones inventory to accommodate full player main inventory and full player crafting grid, preventing lost items
* Altered bones formspec to accommodate this change
* Fixed error where bones would replace half a door, but the other half would remain in place
* Fixed issue where owned objects (locked chests and steel doors) could be removed by bones
* Fixed issue where nodes with inventories could be replaced by bones, which previously allowed chest inventories to be lost
* Added node drops for replaced node (excluding nodes that are buildable_to) to bones inventory, preventing lost nodes

Pull request: https://github.com/PilzAdam/bones/pull/1

I dont like the checking for chests or owned nodes, because just some random meta strings are tested.
I have talked to VanessaE about the crafting grid. People shouldnt use crafting grid as transport space so we decided to try to add the content but when there is not enough space its simply lost.
I also dont like to add the replaced nodes to the bones inventory because it should only contain the players items. Otherwise it would be possible to dig mese without any tools.
Changing minetest.env:remove_node() to dig_node() is a nice idea and I will maybe add it. But a problem here is (mesecons has this problem too) that this calls minetest.handle_node_drops(). If item_drop mod is used this causes the node to be dropped there, so mining mese without tools is possible.

[0gb.us]

I dont like the checking for chests or owned nodes, because just some random meta strings are tested.

True. I don't like the implementation either. I wanted to test for meta data in general, but I'm not sure that can be done with the current API.

I have talked to VanessaE about the crafting grid. People shouldnt use crafting grid as transport space so we decided to try to add the content but when there is not enough space its simply lost.

Then the ability to store things there should be removed before bones is added to minetest_game. The fact is, people DO store things there, and it's not fair for those items to be lost. People are just making use of the tools provided by the game.

I also dont like to add the replaced nodes to the bones inventory because it should only contain the players items. Otherwise it would be possible to dig mese without any tools.

True, but replacing the mese with the bones node and completely losing the mese forever is worse. Just the inconvenience of finding a way to die in mese just to avoid having to use a tool paired with being warped back to the spawn point so you have to walk all the way back down into the mine to find the mese/bones will deter people from using bones as a way of mining without tools. Not to mention the fact that you can only find your way into the mese to die if you already had a strong enough tool to break the mese in the first place, but lag caused the server to not respond to your digging. Or course, another solution is to just not spawn bones if the player is inside ANY node, and let them keep their stuff in that case.

Changing minetest.env:remove_node() to dig_node() is a nice idea and I will maybe add it. But a problem here is (mesecons has this problem too) that this calls minetest.handle_node_drops(). If item_drop mod is used this causes the node to be dropped there, so mining mese without tools is possible.

It is the responsibility of plugin developers to make sure their plugins are fixed to be compatible with minetest_game. In fact, that fix to bones is incompatible with my Full Inventory plugin, which is something I will need to fix if bones is added. Actually, I need to fix it either way, because an incompatibility is an incompatibility. If whoever is developing item_drop has a problem with the way bones is interacting with nodes, they need to add a check to see if the digger is an actual player.

Speaking of incompatibility, NOT using node_dig() is incompatible with some plugins as well. For example, in minetest_game, doors.

-=-=-=-

Maybe my method of dealing with these problems wasn't the best way. However, until theses problems are fixed, be it my fix or a different fix, adding bones to minetest_game seems like a very bad idea. If bones is to be added by default, it should at least be functioning well.