Handling Teen/Adult content and conversation

[Dragonop]

+ "Warning: Long post; Rant, probably a passive agressive one"

(before she edited her post)

The post was deleted, I believe.

I dont have anything against bikinis, or girls, but "exotic dancers" I will not tolerate.

Heh, but you do have something against girls and bikinis.

I will not tolerate

Exactly, you won't tolerate.

Anyways, you can't keep the children away from something that is everywhere, being so correct will only lead to a shy society. You don't have to censor it all, it is not going to help anyone, they will know it, and believe me, most of them will know it before you are able to tell or notice.

Innocence is not a thing anymore. And if it is, it's not a common thing.

When you think your kids are at school, with their "innocent" 6 year old friends, there is nothing keeping them away from telling that "little secret", that's a natural thing. Believe me (again), many of them know it.

The fact that a religion (yes, I'm putting religion in the table, because I know that this is something that is at least 80% related with the most "famous" religion in the world) or a culture believes that something is not right, won't change that a bunch of people think the opposite.

But, as the rules explain, no content that is related to this kind of stuff is allowed in here, so, the rules are the rules. I still think that this was not handled the right way, but I'm not in place to decide such things, we will let a bunch of moderators decide what to do, because, we have no other choice than to appeal to it.

[Casimir]

So can I get a link to the mod please?

I suggest just adding a [nsfa] (not safe for adults) tag when you post some controversial mod. Really, children don't care. They might find it funny or boring but they won't get their brain damaged by anything. It's only adults that have problems with such content.

[Dragonop]

https://github.com/pinkysnowman/girls
The topic has been removed, I believe.

I agree with Casimir.

[rubenwardy]

This may interest you. A comment that the maker of the girls mod posted after people posted negative comments on his/her pull request: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_ga ... -166579022

The comment has been deleted, but I copied it first:

+ The Comment

Fuck you cock knob, i don't need to hear your shit. I have my issues
and coding helps me fucking cope, maybe next time ill come cut your arm
leg and wrist instead of my own! Or cut off that pitiful thing you call a
dick.

[jp]

... the same one who have insulted the devs that civilly declined a PR months ago : http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/201 ... #i_4112846

And got banned.

[Neuromancer]

Sigh, here's hoping we can all find a way to get along. :) Plus I say that stuff about you guys myself all the time. I just keep it to myself. ;)

[everamzah]

Making Minetest available to audiences of all ages could be crucial. Anything that might endanger that accessibility really ought to be avoided, IMHO.

PS. The forum is the cornerstone of any legit Minetest activity.

[Kpenguin]

*Whew* long topic.

I don't think that the mod (or similar mods) should be posted on this forum. I think that posting them on github or other external sites is the way to go. If I were a parent, I wouldn't want my kids to see *that* kind of mod here. I think that Minetest has done a good job at being a good alternative for people that don't like the undead, zombies, witches, magical stuff of MC, and this sort of mod could really drive those sorts of people away (note that I'm not one of those people). We don't need that.

I really don't like were this argument has been going. Many people have been taking things personally, attacking people groups, religions, and opinions that they don't like. This sort of thing can really drive the community apart which is the last thing we want. The SuperTuxKart community had a big argument over the appropriateness of the 0.9 release poster (http://supertuxkart.sourceforge.net/persistent/images/8/82/OfficialPoster_090.jpg). As a result, the guy that did all the coding for the new game engine left the team, and Debian almost refused to package STK anymore. :( We don't need that sort of thing happening here.

So let's move things where they need to be moved, and let's all be friends again.

[Kilarin]

The point isn't censorship, its allowing the minetest FORUM to be a place that parents feel safe letting their children go to and where people feel safe browsing at work. That doesn't mean someone can't run an adult only server with all nude (cubical) skins. But this forum is pretty much the closest thing Minetest has to an "official" representation, and I would agree with others here that if we want to appear professional, and give Minetest the widest audience possible, we should separate out "mature" content.

Of course kids will be able to bypass whatever age verification process you put into place. That isn't the point. It means that they won't run into the content accidentally, they will have to deliberately go after it. Same for adults who didn't want to be exposed to it.

Separating any "mature" mods from the others gives everyone CHOICE.

[Kpenguin]

The point isn't censorship, its allowing the minetest FORUM to be a place that parents feel safe letting their children go to and where people feel safe browsing at work. That doesn't mean someone can't run an adult only server with all nude (cubical) skins. But this forum is pretty much the closest thing Minetest has to an "official" representation, and I would agree with others here that if we want to appear professional, and give Minetest the widest audience possible, we should separate out "mature" content.

Of course kids will be able to bypass whatever age verification process you put into place. That isn't the point. It means that they won't run into the content accidentally, they will have to deliberately go after it. Same for adults who didn't want to be exposed to it.

Separating any "mature" mods from the others gives everyone CHOICE.

+1 Good Point

[Dragonop]

+1 for Kilarin

[asanetargoss]

I don't think that the mod (or similar mods) should be posted on this forum. I think that posting them on github or other external sites is the way to go. If I were a parent, I wouldn't want my kids to see *that* kind of mod here. I think that Minetest has done a good job at being a good alternative for people that don't like the undead, zombies, witches, magical stuff of MC, and this sort of mod could really drive those sorts of people away. We don't need that.

I can understand the sentiment of why people don't want nudity on the forum, but not really fantasy. I love fantasy. It brings back memories of my childhood and captures my imagination.

The point isn't censorship, its allowing the minetest FORUM to be a place that parents feel safe letting their children go to and where people feel safe browsing at work.

Those are two very different standards. What is acceptable in a workplace during break is not necessarily acceptable for the children of concerned parents. The latter is a very contentious issue. Different parents have very different ideas of what constitutes appropriate content for their children at different stages of their life.



We as a community can make it easier for folks concerned of objective content by appropriately tagging forum topic titles and keeping screenshots in spoilers. I think these are very simple things to do. I also don't see anything wrong with an official subgame which caters to especially sensitive concerns.

However, when it comes to the forum content, ultimately there comes a point where a parent has got to step up and enforce their rules. If you're the sort of parent that likes to run a tight ship, it's not enough to tell your kids what websites they can go on. We're in Web 2.0 now. Much of the internet is moderated, not curated. (And oftentimes not moderated at all) Only sites designed specifically for children can be expected to be really good about it.

In particular, expecting a public forum to age-restrict content based on content that particular parents deem inappropriate; for example fantasy magic, religiously evil things, sacrilegious things, zombies, killing cartoon animals, political history, and so forth; is lazy parenting.

If NSFW content stays on the forum, I think an age restriction would be appropriate for that.

In a perfect world, the parents would have checkboxes where they could tick which kind of content they would want their children to see on the forum. But that may require more work on the administrative side.

[Kilarin]

In particular, expecting a public forum to age-restrict content based on content that particular parents deem inappropriate; for example fantasy magic, religiously evil things, sacrilegious things, zombies, killing cartoon animals, political history, and so forth; is lazy parenting.

I don't disagree. NSFW/"Mature" content is an issue we should deal with. It's a mainstream issue with a lot of general agreement about it. I don't mean agreement about whether it is ok or not, but there is a fairly clear majority consensus on keeping NSFW material separated. And, while there will certainly be some disagreement, it shouldn't be too hard to get a general consensus on what is NSFW and what isn't.

I would also support a complete ban on "offensive" material, as in, racist etc. We don't need the kind of controversy or reputation that would bring Minetest. And, as far as I know, that has not been an issue so far. Common sense seems to prevail there.

But, attempting to comply with every individual's specific preferences and prohibitions is impossible, because they are too diverse. It is entirely reasonable to separate out a "strippers" mod. It's not reasonable or practical to separate out zombies. (Although, now that I think about it, keeping the zombies separate from everything, and especially everyONE else is a pretty important goal!) :D

We as a community can make it easier for folks concerned of objective content by appropriately tagging forum topic titles and keeping screenshots in spoilers.

I would actually prefer a completely separate section for such material with a pop up warning the first time someone tries to access it. BUT, that would certainly be more complicated. A "NSFW" tag would be the minimal approach.

Although, lets be serious. This is minetest. The people are cubes. I think the "NSFW" content is going to be somewhat limited. :)

[Don]

Minetest is a community of people from all over the world. They are people of all ages and many different beliefs. Because of this I think the forum should be run like a secular / humanistcommunity. Any material that is an attack on any race or religion should be banned. If it is against ones beliefs but not a direct attack then it is acceptable.

As for x rated material, since most countries have laws that restrict access then it should not be on the forums. The problem with this is that there is no clear definition of pornography or obscenity. It is based on community standards test. This means that the people overseeing the community would have to define it for this community. Here is an article that discusses this issue in Canadian law.

The main thing to remember is that we are are a community of different people. We need to respect that people have different beliefs and accept that they have a right to their beliefs just as much as you have a right to yours.

[Dragonop]

Any material that is an attack on any race or religion should be banned.
-snip-
We need to respect that people have different beliefs and accept that they have a right to their beliefs just as much as you have a right to yours.

You just _forgot_ about atheists and agnostics, which makes your third paragraph conflict with the first one.

Most religious people think because somebody says that "there is no god", it's considered an attack, so, are you suggesting to ban atheists/agnostics from the forum?

Excluding those little mistakes (I hope) I agree, mostly.

[Kilarin]

You just _forgot_ about atheists and agnostics, which makes your third paragraph conflict with the first one.

how? We don't want Atheists attacking Theists or Theists attacking Atheists.

But seriously, this is MINETEST, a building game based on cubes. NSFW material isn't likely to be a big problem, and I hope hate based material isn't likely to be even a little problem. Best that we have a policy in place, but we aren't likely to have to enforce it.

[Don]

@Dragonop - I should have said belief instead of religion. I am an atheist so I do not want to be banned from the forum. My main point is that we need to respect each others beliefs and ethnicity. Since I am responding to a mistake I made I will also point out another one. I used the word "race". I am aware that race is a human construct and I should have use the word ethnicity.
@Kilarin - I have been on the forum for almost 2 years now. I agree that enforcement is likely not needed. From what I have seen so far is healthy debates but very few go too far. The community as a whole has been very good. I have not seen any NSFW content yet.

[Dragonop]

You just _forgot_ about atheists and agnostics, which makes your third paragraph conflict with the first one.

how? We don't want Atheists attacking Theists or Theists attacking Atheists.

Never said that it would be allowed to do so, but exposing your ideas if you are an atheist usually makes religious people feel attacked.

@Don, I supposed that's what you meant from the beggining :-)

[Kilarin]

but exposing your ideas if you are an atheist usually makes religious people feel attacked.

Shouldn't. I've had some great discussions with Atheist. People should be able to disagree without being disagreeable. It's too bad that this seems to be so difficult for so many.

[rubenwardy]

Similarly, it seems that most theists attack us. I've had some great discussions with theists.

[Don]

I have a number of friends that are theists. Never an issue between us even when we discuss religion. I also have had many people treat me very bad just because I am an atheist. I have also seen a few atheists that have attacked theists without being provoked. It really doesn't matter what belief you have there will always be a closed minded person waiting to pounce. They need to learn acceptance instead of hate.