FOSS gamedev and creative worlds

I suggest to rename the current default Minetest subgame, which is often referred to as “minetest_game” or “vanilla Minetest game” (in the community wiki). In game.cfg, the subgame is just called “Minetest”, like the engine.

The subgame lacks a “real” name, one that does not sound too technical and is not equal to the name of the engine.

It is easy for newbies to conflate both minetest_game and Minetest (the engine), partly because of the same/similar name.

IMO the new name should not be “Minetest”. The name should avoid confusion with the engine. But I have no concrete ideas, sadly. Does anyone have ideas for a better name for minetest_game?

How about Official subgame?
It's included by default and developed officially.

Mineland

minetest_demo or game_demo

Self explanatory to new users. It's a minimum game that gets them up and running enough to use the engine. Also implies there are other (and arguably more polished) games available.

ExeterDad wrote:minetest_demo or game_demo
<snip>
minimum game that gets <snip>

Are you talking about the minimal developement test game?

Wuzzy wrote:It is easy for newbies to conflate both minetest_game and Minetest (the engine), partly because of the same/similar name.

The main problem is, that even by more experienced users and in the documentation, the terms “Minetest” and “minetest_game” are used synonymous.

If it would be 100 percent clear in usage of the terms and in the documentation that “Minetest” refers to the engine and explicitly excluding the game itself and “minetest_game” only refers to the game itself and explicitly excluding the engine it would be all fine :)

Maybe rename “Minetest” to “Minetest Engine” and “minetest_game” to “Minetest Game” and use “Minetest” for the combination of “Minetest Engine” and “Minetest Game” for having better names.

Other games for “Minetest Engine” could be called “Minetest XYZ” without breaking naming conventions.

Krock wrote:Are you talking about the minimal developement test game?

Negative Sir,
Talking about the official game. All the new users (including myself in the beginning) seem disappointed that there is little to do and nothing to fight. If demo is within the name, they will know that there is so much more that can be done with the game. Whether it's installing mods to customize the game, or install another sub game outright.

On that note (yet offtopic), a subgame download and install tab would be a nice feature on the main screen.

Linuxdirk wrote:Maybe rename “Minetest” to “Minetest Engine” and “minetest_game” to “Minetest Game” and use “Minetest” for the combination of “Minetest Engine” and “Minetest Game” for having better names.

Other games for “Minetest Engine” could be called “Minetest XYZ” without breaking naming conventions.

I like that idea.

But don't it called "minetest_game" since it Is Minetest and the Game is the Game. But whatever reaname it to would need lots of rewrite. like minetest.register and so on.

Furthermore I think the Folder it self needs an "_" to load right? Well I don't add it but It since I use windows and I never had an Fail cannot find folder yet.

But I sometimes rename my minetest_game folder to master_game. and the game.conf Minetest part to Official Minetest.

Another idea ;)
MT-MESE Engine

Also Minetest Needs a new Concept Design maybe in 2015.

Alt. Tester wrote:But whatever reaname it to would need lots of rewrite. like minetest.register and so on.

You register stuff to the Minetest engine (minetest) so it can be used by the game (minetest_game). What’s the problem with that?

I’m pretty sure you can write a game for Minetest (the engine) that establishes an own engine that accepts mods and you can create a function/class/thing called mymod.register() for being easily distinguishable from the register function for the Minetest engine.

Linuxdirk wrote:

Wuzzy wrote:It is easy for newbies to conflate both minetest_game and Minetest (the engine), partly because of the same/similar name.

The main problem is, that even by more experienced users and in the documentation, the terms “Minetest” and “minetest_game” are used synonymous.

If it would be 100 percent clear in usage of the terms and in the documentation that “Minetest” refers to the engine and explicitly excluding the game itself and “minetest_game” only refers to the game itself and explicitly excluding the engine it would be all fine :)

Maybe rename “Minetest” to “Minetest Engine” and “minetest_game” to “Minetest Game” and use “Minetest” for the combination of “Minetest Engine” and “Minetest Game” for having better names.

Other games for “Minetest Engine” could be called “Minetest XYZ” without breaking naming conventions.

+42 , CAN be a very good idea to clarify and structurate things ...

Furthermore I think the Folder it self needs an "_" to load right?

No. Also, the folder name does not matter much. You can set the human-readable name in game.cfg.

Oh, besides: I am only talking about the *real* name for the subgame, not the internal one used for the folder or whatever. And “minetest_game” simply sounds too technical for me.

“Mineland” sounds interesting, but also too gamey. This sub“game” is not a game in the strict sense. The name would be great if it would be actually a game, but sadly it is not.
I don't like “Minetest Game” for the same reason.

I like “Minetest Demo” (“minetest_demo” may be the internal name used for the folder), because for a game, it is admittedly too shallow (first, it is not a game in the strict sense: It is mainly a sandbox with no goals, secondly, there are no challenges, etc. etc. etc. A game has goals and it is all about meaningful decisions.). Also as far I know the developers of this subgame are seeing it more as a “base to mod the hell out of it” and it has also been decided to not add mobs in this subgame. So it is unlikeley this sub“game” will ever become a game by itself alone.

But the word “Demo” is also problematic, because it is also a term from the proprietary software world for crippled software, as opposed to the “full version” (read: the uncrippled version). Players could probably run away screaming as soon as they see the word “Demo”. (“What? I thought it was free! Now this is just a stupid demo! Stupid liars! I delete this.”)

Maybe “Minetest Demonstration”, “Minetest Example Game” or just “Demonstration”.

What would be actually needed is a name which conveys:

• It's not a game
• It's a sandbox (building and mining stuff are the most which you can do for now)
• It is intended to be a base for modding

“Minetest Base” or “Base” would be cool, but the first name is already taken and “Base” is too similar.

Maybe “Foundation”. This name does not sound as if the sub“game” it refers to were a game. Also, “Foundation” can be understood in the sense of “that thing on which you build houses on” (lol), so it conveys the sandbox block-building meaning. But it can also be understood as the technical foundation for mods. There are also limits, what is not so clear here that the name could be falsely understoof that this subgame is a requirement for modding. But probably the documentation shoud make that clear anyways. IMO far to many mods depend on the default sub“game”.
Clearly NOT “Minetest Foundation”, it could be understood as if it were the foundation OF Minetest, lol.

Wuzzy wrote:What would be actually needed is a name which conveys:

• It's not a game
• It's a sandbox (building and mining stuff are the most which you can do for now)
• It is intended to be a base for modding

“Minetest Base” or “Base” would be cool, but the first name is already taken and “Base” is too similar.

“Minetest Sandbox”?

Minetest Vanilla
Minetest VanillaBox

+1 to VanillaBox

Why not just "Minetest Vanilla" or "Vanilla Minetest" (whatever works better in English)? Or "Common base game" could work as well. The name as such is less important than telling people that there's more out there and where and how they can easily locate and install what they like.

I made this discussion into an GitHub issue:

https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/437

Everything sounds strange. Minetest Vanilla is IMO the best of all those suggestions

Yeah, “Minetest Vanilla” sounds indeed like a good option, I would not oppose it if such a name is chosen.

Of course many names sound strange because most ideas come from brainstorming. ;-)

We could always just revert the name back to Minetest NeXt.

Since the eventual goal is to have multiple games bundled with the engine. It would probably be better to avoid using terms that would give it more weight than the others. Such as official, default or vanilla.

I agree. The included sub games shouldn't make them thing "oh, this is the main minetest game" they should different varying purposes. You'd need ability for a description and a screenshot like in the mod store.

What about simple_game as a name?

I think that Vanilla Minetest would be best.

How about Open_Mine?
Open pit mining is a real thing and Minetest is an open source game. It also implies that it is open to modding.
Just my 2 cents worth. Factor in inflation and it is worth around 1/2 a cent.

Linuxdirk wrote:

Wuzzy wrote:It is easy for newbies to conflate both minetest_game and Minetest (the engine), partly because of the same/similar name.

The main problem is, that even by more experienced users and in the documentation, the terms “Minetest” and “minetest_game” are used synonymous.

If it would be 100 percent clear in usage of the terms and in the documentation that “Minetest” refers to the engine and explicitly excluding the game itself and “minetest_game” only refers to the game itself and explicitly excluding the engine it would be all fine :)

Maybe rename “Minetest” to “Minetest Engine” and “minetest_game” to “Minetest Game” and use “Minetest” for the combination of “Minetest Engine” and “Minetest Game” for having better names.

Other games for “Minetest Engine” could be called “Minetest XYZ” without breaking naming conventions.

I believe LinuxDirk has it right. You just need clarity in the usage of the terms.
The way he explains it is pretty much how I already understood it to be (at least I thought so)

This whole topic is based on how Wuzzy thinks new comers might be confused,
but if people download Minetest and dont find a "Minetest" game inside they will be confused...maybe even pissed.

Who downloads minecraft to play the "diggingdanistheman-demo_game" nobody
You download Minecraft to play Minecraft and you download Minetest to play Minetest.
its pretty simple.

And calling it vanilla or basic or whatever just undermines the game

I think some things should just be left alone.
Of course this is just my opinion

Napiophelios wrote:[…] but if people download Minetest and dont find a "Minetest" game inside they will be confused...maybe even pissed. […] You download Minecraft to play Minecraft and you download Minetest to play Minetest.

^ This exactly.

Did you check the GitHub discussion? There are some suggestions made that have absolutely nothing to do with Minetest … THIS is confusing stuff.

I like keeping it simple. Like I described above in my opinion anything more than “Minetest Engine” and “Minetest Game” (and the combination of both simply named “Minetest”) would cause more confusion as there already is.

I agree with Minetest XYZ.

It's "subgame" anyway, and the world creater should reflect this. You could see it as game modes. You play Minecraft for creative and survival. I don't like Minetest vanilla as it implies that it is unmodded, which isn't necessarily true. Minetest Game is satisfactory, but I think there should be 3 or more bundled by default called Minetest XYZ, with the XYZ explaining what the subgame aims to do easily, with none implying they're the default game.

Like Minetest Builder, Minetest Survival, Minetest Engineer. You'd need descriptions too.
Builder isn't creative, but won't have hardcore hunger and mobs like survival would have.

Napiophelios wrote:

Linuxdirk wrote:

Wuzzy wrote:It is easy for newbies to conflate both minetest_game and Minetest (the engine), partly because of the same/similar name.

The main problem is, that even by more experienced users and in the documentation, the terms “Minetest” and “minetest_game” are used synonymous.

If it would be 100 percent clear in usage of the terms and in the documentation that “Minetest” refers to the engine and explicitly excluding the game itself and “minetest_game” only refers to the game itself and explicitly excluding the engine it would be all fine :)

Maybe rename “Minetest” to “Minetest Engine” and “minetest_game” to “Minetest Game” and use “Minetest” for the combination of “Minetest Engine” and “Minetest Game” for having better names.

Other games for “Minetest Engine” could be called “Minetest XYZ” without breaking naming conventions.

I believe LinuxDirk has it right. You just need clarity in the usage of the terms.
The way he explains it is pretty much how I already understood it to be (at least I thought so)

This whole topic is based on how Wuzzy thinks new comers might be confused,
but if people download Minetest and dont find a "Minetest" game inside they will be confused...maybe even pissed.

Who downloads minecraft to play the "diggingdanistheman-demo_game" nobody
You download Minecraft to play Minecraft and you download Minetest to play Minetest.
its pretty simple.

And calling it vanilla or basic or whatever just undermines the game

I think some things should just be left alone.
Of course this is just my opinion

+1

but if people download Minetest and dont find a "Minetest" game inside they will be confused...maybe even pissed.

Who downloads minecraft to play the "diggingdanistheman-demo_game" nobody

And calling it vanilla or basic or whatever just undermines the game

minetest_game is not a game, because it lacks basic goals or even challenges. You just do what you want to, not even death has a real consequence. You can't win or lose in minetest_game. These are all the stereotypical properties of a sandbox. Therefore, minetest_game is a sandbox.

Also, I hate it to write “minetest_game” or “Minetest (the subgame)” and “Minetest (the engine)” every time in discussions instead of a proper name. It gets annoying.

I also do not understand what you meant by “claritiy in the usage of terms”. A clarity would be an unambigious naming. But if you defend ambigious names (the same name for both the engine and the default subgame), then how exactly does this helps here? o_O

And minetest_game is really just a diggingdanistheman-demo_game. ;-) It feels very much like a demo, really, because there is not much stuff you can do in it. But this is a completely different topic, by the way.
(I am not suggesting this crazy name, of course!).

[…] but if people download Minetest and dont find a "Minetest" game inside they will be confused...maybe even pissed. […] You download Minecraft to play Minecraft and you download Minetest to play Minetest.

This can all be fixed by modifying the main menu in such a way that it is more newbie-friendly, i.e. a pointer to the default game (or a brief explanation), handling a tutorial (hint-hint ;-)), and much more. Currently, the main menu is pretty ugly, also it is not helpful to newbies at all, they do not understand at this point the concept of subgames, mobs, and all the other stuff.

but I think there should be 3 or more bundled by default called Minetest XYZ, with the XYZ explaining what the subgame aims to do easily, with none implying they're the default game.

Like Minetest Builder, Minetest Survival, Minetest Engineer. You'd need descriptions too.
Builder isn't creative, but won't have hardcore hunger and mobs like survival would have.

I don't like this idea very much. It would cause a huge amount of redundancy and thus a large potential for inconsistency. It would be hell to maintain all these subgames.
Because you are basically forking the entire subgame over and over again with only a few modifications, the base would, however, stay the same. I think you can use the same codebase to implement multiple “modes”.

This could be solved by allowing some subgame (or mod??) configuration in the main menu, in world creation or whatever, where you can set subgame-specific variables (such as “Activate enemies”, “infinite items”, etc.). How exactly this could work isn't clear yet, but I think it is pretty clear possible to improve the main menu for some kind of mod- or subgame-specific configs.

Of course, a fork is justified as soon as you are going to make big changes to gameplay or important mods.






Anyways. Personally, I have no strong opinion towards any particular name, I just think the name should be changed.

They would be completely different games with many changes and different blocks etc. I just gave some examples of the sort of names that would be good, names that explain what is special about that subgame.