Gaining our own identity, as a gaming experience.

[arcturian_vagabond]

I am still relatively new to Minetest. This post resonates with me because I see the potential for the Minetest engine (or however you call it) to achieve a unique identity for itself, apart from the preconceived ideas of the public.

I don't think you will ever escape comparisons with MC as long as the default game which is bundled with MT is a block based building game with crafting and destructible terrain. Even games like Cubeworld and Stonehearth are unjustly called "MC clones" while they have practically enothing in common.

I love the idea of providing a science fiction backdrop as a premise for adventuring in this strange world. I wonder what game mechanics could be implemented to provide such an experience. Chemistry could be amazing! What about air, water, or steam powered devices?

What about a goal? I don't mean like, "protect the village, slay the dragon", or any nonsense like that. What if your goal is to build or complete a complex of structures? Maybe you are trying to establish a safe place for a colony of travelers to settle? Or something else?

Immersion:
Terraform the planet? (see Dune)
...
**How friggin cool would a Dune mod be with working sandworm!

Yes! Frank Herbert's stories are rich with inspiration for an amazing sci-fi setting!

Go further into the survival aspect, instead of punching a tree at the start you should be looking for rocks to bash together , then you can use the shard to cut at trees. add thirst and water purification

Hardcore survival mode? Perhaps you've played Better Than Wolves? Great idea!

[srifqi]

...
<text that I cut>
...

Hardcore survival mode? Perhaps you've played Better Than Wolves? Great idea!

Maybe do you want to try this? [Mod] Banned on Die [0.1] [banondie]

[ArguablySane]

I too would like to see minetest move away from being a "copy" of minecraft. There are a few mechanics which I was never entirely happy with in minecraft, but have been brought over to minetest for some reason.

The most significant one is probably crafting. That 3x3 crafting grid works fine for a low-tech world where you only ever have to craft a few simple tools, but with mods adding hundreds or even thousands of new recipes it just becomes tedious. I'd like to see a system using blueprints and a workbench. You should spawn with the ability to create wooden tools, torches, and a few other basic items (possibly using the inventory crafting grid), but anything more complex should require building a workbench, inserting a blueprint, and giving it some materials. Blueprints could either be created through a research system, or simply selected from a list similar to the creative menu. With the research idea, blueprints could even come with varying quality levels which affect how much time or resources are required to build things. Blueprints would allow recipes to be more complicated, while also removing the need for the user to remember hundreds of very specific 3x3 patterns. Minecraft suffers from a serious documentation problem because there's no intuitive way to discover the various recipes, and a large number of minecraft mods were created to make crafting less frustrating.

[rubenwardy]

I would like workshop benches, 4x4 and 5x5, in default Minetest. There are mods for it, but none of the mod developers support them.

[arcturian_vagabond]

Minecraft suffers from a serious documentation problem because there's no intuitive way to discover the various recipes, and a large number of minecraft mods were created to make crafting less frustrating.

I always thought there should be a way to learn crafting recipes through gameplay as a means of progression. Recording recipes in books could have been a convenience feature after having found a recipe, perhaps by experimentation.

Your blueprints idea could cover all that and more. Tie crafting and progression together in some way and I think you have a winning formula.

[indriApollo]

Minetest - Heartfire Extension ;p

[Scheiker]

Minetest doesn't offer a particularly unique gaming experience. Sure, the mod support is nice, but it doesn't help sell the game to players. It doesn't give our game a unique experience.

I'd like your ideas on how we can make Minetest unique, a game worth playing.

How many Minecraft like games exist using a free software license? Terasology is the only other one I know of but because of all the advance shaders they use it is unplayable using free software for a Nvidia cards. Intel graphics will work but because it is using Java and all those fancy shaders the performance you get using Intel graphics is terrible. I heard free software drivers for AMD were better than the ones for Nvidia but because I don't own an AMD card I haven't tested it.

So unless there are just a ton of Minecraft like games under a free software license that I just don't know about (I am sure there are at least a few), I'll say Minetest is already pretty unique and has a edge over Terasology in terms of performance and availability(as long as the Minetest devs don't force us to use stuff from an OpenGL standard that isn't yet support by most free graphics drivers/libraries).

[rubenwardy]

This is about the gameplay. Not about the logistics of licensing. I don't care about it being open source when it comes to gameplay. Stop using it as an excuse to have a less polisheand unique experience.

Let's discuss the merit of each game, rather than talking about price and freedom. If you do it that way, Minecraft is much better the Minetest, due to polish of sounds and textures. This isn't about comparing to Minecraft, this is about comparing to what we could be, and trying to get there.

Minetest should be a game which is played instead of Minecraft, rather than as a substitute when you can't afford Minecraft.

Let's sell ourselves on the merit of the game, not the licence or community.

[superschizo]

I hate creepers.

[neoascetic]

One of the first things I see when I open up Minetest is an unattractive menu and if it wasn't for the fact that I came to Minetest to mod I would have closed the game an carried on with my life.

When I user opens up a game the first thing they see is the buttons, the intro... this is the first impression, the icon is very pretty, cartoony and all.... The GUI should include more smooth buttons.

I find that most attractive menus have buttons on the sides, and menus in the middle, think like GTA, COD, etc.

Agreed.

[domtron vox]

From what I have seen modders have come up with many gameplay mechanics that are unique. There are also non unique mechanics because that is what some people want. And frankly if someone wants a MC clone let them make it and don't harass them about it especially since this engine came about (if I'm not mistaken) because the founder was trying to make a game cloned from mostly Minecraft and partially infiniminer. That being said I personally dislike clones and am very glad MT became an engine. :)

A big issue here is that we are in MC's shadow. So when someone sees any voxel game they are going to think "MineCraft" first just because of it's shear popularity. For example on first look Starmade looks like a space mod of MC and only when you watch a video, realizing it has full 3D movement and decent VAE's, will it be obviously not MC. On the other hand Space engineers is basically a voxle engine but few would mistake it for MC since you have some meshes and multiple sized voxels(and again decent VAE support). You might be able to get a significant "second look" if you change the look of nodes significantly but as rubenwardy said people will think "MineCraft Texturpack." :/

I think the other major issue is polish. Polish on said unique mechanics, polish of the graphical interface, polish of ambiance, polish of the games in general. Frankly, I think the graphical interface is the biggest shortcoming when it comes to polish(like sarusian said). I'm not sure if this is because the API/GUI mechanics are bad or just laxness of the modders. (we won't use lazy since making free stuff is hard work ;) ) I think rubenwardy's utility mod, smartFS, is a major boon to this area. (btw keep working on it :D) And I have seen some nice additions lately like Wuzzy's Hud bars mod. So we seem to be making progress here.

How many Minecraft like games exist using a free software license?

There are a number of both FOSS and free voxel engines/games and an overabundance of non-free ones. However, A majority of players really don't care about the open source -ness of a game. Usually players care most about graphics. This genre obviously weeds those out attracting the more sophisticated players that focus on mechanics. (ASCII games like rougelikes do this the best :P) Only a small selection of players are really hardcore FOSS gamers. I prefer FOSS just so I can change stuff if I ever want to and be able to use it on my OS of choice (linux).

anyway those are my thoughts. Sigh, And that was way longer then intended. D:

[rubenwardy]

Finally, someone that thinks like me.

One of the probblems of the GUI is that formspec are so limiting. You can't draw custom components, I don't think that there is proper support for changing the style of a dialogue which scales as the window changes size, background images are bitmap. They're going - or are at least planning to - be rewritten and redesigned for 0.5, which may or may not be released this year. A new system would need to have client side prediction, so you can send scripts which can draw on the dialog to make custom components.

The main menu just looks ugly. It's the first thing you see.

[domtron vox]

The main menu just looks ugly. It's the first thing you see.

I was thinking about that not too long ago. I would go for a similar style to the Technic Launcher which is very minimal/straight forward. I personally think the main menu should just be a glorified game launcher and then games get to have their own main menu with additional feature like a custom settings interface and other things (like a character creation screen for RPG games). The launcher could have a connect to sever "game" and a download content game along with all the other installed game. It could also have a button to open general settings that might cause problems getting into a game.

But again this is kinda cloning the MC community. >.<

[Gael de Sailly]

Feel free to propose what you imagine, what is your dream about the game, even if it's delirious, this is what we need and what we lack.
Create a new topic, expose your ideas : you don't need to be a programmer to help the game and its community, you only need to have imagination.
We all have ideas. We don't dare to expose a completely new idea, because "the forum is made only to report bugs and to propose technical stuff". This is wrong !

Feel free to say what you want to see in the game !

[Sokomine]

The most significant one is probably crafting. That 3x3 crafting grid works fine for a low-tech world where you only ever have to craft a few simple tools, but with mods adding hundreds or even thousands of new recipes it just becomes tedious. I'd like to see a system using blueprints and a workbench. You should spawn with the ability to create wooden tools, torches, and a few other basic items (possibly using the inventory crafting grid), but anything more complex should require building a workbench, inserting a blueprint, and giving it some materials. Blueprints could either be created through a research system, or simply selected from a list similar to the creative menu. With the research idea, blueprints could even come with varying quality levels which affect how much time or resources are required to build things. Blueprints would allow recipes to be more complicated, while also removing the need for the user to remember hundreds of very specific 3x3 patterns. Minecraft suffers from a serious documentation problem because there's no intuitive way to discover the various recipes, and a large number of minecraft mods were created to make crafting less frustrating.

In Minetest, unified_inventory with its craft guide is a great help. But I do like your suggestion a lot: Basic things can be crafted easily, and more advanced machinery can be done using other machines. That'd also eliminate the need to think of more or less crazy ideas for crafting receipes for homedecor and technic. Plus RPG like games could add some skill level required to craft certain advanced items. But in general: Machines for doing the job instead of crafting receipes!

[AgentNagel42]

I agree that we should definitely branch our own identity. We need a good reason for people to play Minetest instead of just summing it up to MC for slow computers. The fact that we run on slow computers is our greatest strong point, but it definitely should not be our only one. Sure the Minetest modding community is great, you guys are awesome. But the average person won't be willing to browse a forum for an hour to find what they need. We need to spice up the stock game play definitely.

[dandelion]

I have to echo ArguablySane's comment on the crafting grid. It is unwieldly and as long as it is in the game it will invite the Minecraft comparison.

I don't think differentiating Minetest by adding a story or changing the setting is the right approach.

What seems to be unique about Minetest is its modding community. Put that front and center. That's done with in-game mod download (compare to mod launchers like FTB and Technic) and in-game modding tools (simple block and item editors, map editors).

[slopsbucket]

Just thought I'd throw in my two bob's worth with the MineCraft comparrison thing.

I've never played minecraft but I wipe Win8 (everyone hates it) and install Linux systems for people and some have been worried that they won't be able to play Minecraft in Linux so I install it for them.

That gave me the idea of playing but it wanted money before I even got to try it. I'm not stupid, try before you buy. Always. But I figured there'd be some sort of open source equivalent and went hunting. My personal experience has consistently been that open source is always a better quality product than the commercial versions any way, same deal with closed source but "free to use" software too. Firefox and VLC to name a couple.

I didn't have to search too hard to find MineTest - once I'd found the name! I poured through piles of other rubbish before I found you mob.

So without ever trying Minecraft to compare it to, I fell in love with MineTest. I must admit, I find the development pace a little scary, too fast. And it's really this comparisson business with Minecraft that scares me. I started playing with version 0.4.9 and I'm still only playing 0.4.11. It's the textures, I fell in love with Minetest how it is, I don't want it to change too much or too quick. The devs will probably cringe at these words but it's true, it's quaint, it's cute, and it's trying to be nothing other than itself.

Trying to imitate another game must surely only lead to a loss of identity, a loss of individuality, in essence - another cheap chinese copy rolex.

I truly hope the devs don't go down that path, Minetest as it is is a brilliant game and engine, I hope it always remains true to itself.

And as for the lack of popularity - I don't believe that's because of any lack in the game. I believe that it's just a lack of public exposure - no one knows you're there.

Cheers,

Andrew.

[Gael de Sailly]

I don't think differentiating Minetest by adding a story or changing the setting is the right approach.

And as for the lack of popularity - I don't believe that's because of any lack in the game. I believe that it's just a lack of public exposure - no one knows you're there.

I think that something really lacks in the game. For me, it's in the default game, and in the mapgen. We need 2, 3 or even 4 subgames, and a tutorial.

What seems to be unique about Minetest is its modding community.

I feel the same. The community is dynamic and cooperative. We're able to do anything. This is an almost unique situation, that I call the cyber-volunteering. To my mind Minetest isn't far to be the best game of the video games history. We only need to work a little, together. Notice that for me the best games aren't the most popular games. Who would dare to say that 2048 is the best video game ?

[MeowCat]

We, especially if they are unrealistic, as generally diamond and obsidian, should not have something that is associated with the Minecraft. Diamond is usually clear, not usually blue, and obsidian is not difficult to break in real life. In addition, obsidian glass is what? To what the real object, and does it correspond to ??

[Gael de Sailly]

Yes, it's unrealistic, definitely. But it's the game. We need a recognizable color for diamond, and the white is already taken. And, more than the color, diamond tools are simply unrealistic. But we need something more powerful than steel.
Copying Minecraft is not a good idea, but inventing some things that don't exist in reality isn't always a bad thing.

I think that our identity is made in a big part by the Mese. It's a symbol.

[rubenwardy]

Mese and Nyancats are our only really unique blocks. I liked the alien idea as it adds the potential for more alien ores, etc.

[q9c9p]

Pardon me to jump in the discussion.

I wanted to say this for a long time but I never find the way/time to articulate.

"You cannot compare cocacola to spring water, water can be made anything you want too if you want too and nobody can forbid that to you" in the same way you cannot compare minecraft to minetest ( pardon my arrogance to state this of your software ).

I think every person aware of the issue ( foss vs proprietary ) should point out first, before going into any discussion, that one is made out of a commercial need, the other from another need ( state your own, for me the need to make it my own but still leave the same liberty to others ).

I heard of minecraft in classrooms and such, a product owned by a company with shady practices ( I mean mojang and the "you shouldn't do it but we won't come to get you" practice that are the pillar of the minecraft/bukkit-spigot-younameit/forge scene ) is allowed to set the example and the standard much like microsoft pushed windows in the throath of every school "back in the days".

I don't want to sound moralist, paternizing or a cyber-bakunin of sort but one should ask to self "do I stand for Free and Open Software or I stand for freeware gaming? Do I want to stand in the line for free stuff or in the crowd that shares stuff to each others?( or will I stand on the side eating popcorns waiting to see where the majority goes :D ) " , thats the question the bukkit people did not ask themselfs before signing with gpl and did not realize ( aka they just wanted free gaming ). Free and Open is a political stand point, period. You can put it the way you want it, but it was born like that and will always be there because of that. You don't like it? Fork off and die. (do not mind this joke probably only few here will get it :D ) http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Fork_off_and_die

I hope beside giving free stuff to people minetest enfatize this and goes in the way to make kids oil the cogs of critic thinking in their brains. I know...sounds terribly paternalitics and moralist...

Pardon me for having bothered, but I hope at least here people will make their mind about this and bash less with "illuminati/reptilians/tinfoil hat" jokes, and of course pardon my gramar and to have trown names of controverse software in this post.

[rubenwardy]

q9c9p, that is offtopic, this thread is about gameplay, user experience and branding. For the intents of this thread, I don't care about licensing or the ethics of the creator.

[Dopium]

Yes, it's unrealistic, definitely. But it's the game. We need a recognizable color for diamond, and the white is already taken. And, more than the color, diamond tools are simply unrealistic. But we need something more powerful than steel.

Diamond tools are realistic, they are used in manufacturing and construction. Tools hardly need a revamp there is plenty, bronze and mese are stronger then steel anyway and thankfully gold has been left untouched.

As for changing the texture color it's nothing other then opening a simple image editor and changing it. Personally most the time a new version/build is released i have to edit a handful of textures and or code to match my texture pack/mods ect.

If diamond is your only worry consider yourself lucky

[ExeterDad]

Diamond tools are realistic, they are used in manufacturing and construction.

Agreed.
I own many blades bits and odds and ends that are made with diamond. Ever seen a hot saw? Commonly used to cut concrete. I'd bet my left **** it has a diamond blade.

[Napiophelios]

Diamond tools are realistic, they are used in manufacturing and construction.

Agreed.
I own many blades bits and odds and ends that are made with diamond. Ever seen a hot saw? Commonly used to cut concrete. I'd bet my left **** it has a diamond blade.

I bet my steel sword would snap your diamond sword into a million little gem like pieces when they clashed :)
you guys are talking about commercial applications which is not the same as a frikkin sword made out of diamonds.
I am a construction worker too Exeterdad and I can tell you the blades in your concrete saw are not sharp they just have an incredible material strength.

We, especially if they are unrealistic, as generally diamond and obsidian, should not have something that is associated with the Minecraft. Diamond is usually clear, not usually blue, and obsidian is not difficult to break in real life. In addition, obsidian glass is what? To what the real object, and does it correspond to ??

Diamonds like most gems ores rocks come in a countless variety of colors
and densities depending on where its formed.
Blue Diamonds are very famous.

Obsidian is a form of glass...
I imagine obsidian glass in the game to be a refined/tooled form of rough naturally occurring obsidian
Some primitive cultures have made beautifully crafted perfectly smooth black mirrors from the stuff

In its rough chunk like form obsidian is remarkably difficult to break
depending on its thickness and point of origin.

However because of the way it breaks, it can be considered brittle when its not very thick.

Despite it brittleness obsidian blades are sharper than steel could ever be.
When held under a microscope the edges are perfectly smooth,
Modern surgeons are actually using the stuff for scalpels because of the perfection of its edge.

Obsidian has so many beautiful and unique forms
some are used for tools and weapons some are more suited for jewelry and crafts

I think Minetest should opt for Rainbow Obsidian
its very unique and looks kinda mystical.

[philipbenr]

Just thought I'd throw in my two bob's worth with the MineCraft comparrison thing.

I've never played minecraft but I wipe Win8 (everyone hates it) and install Linux systems for people and some have been worried that they won't be able to play Minecraft in Linux so I install it for them.

That gave me the idea of playing but it wanted money before I even got to try it. I'm not stupid, try before you buy. Always. But I figured there'd be some sort of open source equivalent and went hunting. My personal experience has consistently been that open source is always a better quality product than the commercial versions any way, same deal with closed source but "free to use" software too. Firefox and VLC to name a couple.

I didn't have to search too hard to find MineTest - once I'd found the name! I poured through piles of other rubbish before I found you mob.

So without ever trying Minecraft to compare it to, I fell in love with MineTest. I must admit, I find the development pace a little scary, too fast. And it's really this comparisson business with Minecraft that scares me. I started playing with version 0.4.9 and I'm still only playing 0.4.11. It's the textures, I fell in love with Minetest how it is, I don't want it to change too much or too quick. The devs will probably cringe at these words but it's true, it's quaint, it's cute, and it's trying to be nothing other than itself.

Trying to imitate another game must surely only lead to a loss of identity, a loss of individuality, in essence - another cheap chinese copy rolex.

I truly hope the devs don't go down that path, Minetest as it is is a brilliant game and engine, I hope it always remains true to itself.

And as for the lack of popularity - I don't believe that's because of any lack in the game. I believe that it's just a lack of public exposure - no one knows you're there.

Cheers,

Andrew.

+1. Great post Andrew

[Dopium]

Commonly used to cut concrete. I'd bet my left **** it has a diamond blade.

Without a doubt, either diamond or tungsten tipped and they cost a small fortune. Also very useful for drilling and cutting glass.

I bet my steel sword would snap your diamond sword into a million little gem like pieces when they clashed :)
you guys are talking about commercial applications which is not the same as a frikkin sword made out of diamonds.
I am a construction worker too Exeterdad and I can tell you the blades in your concrete saw are not sharp they just have an incredible material strength.

Also absolutely true yet its hard to say in regards of a sword as the use of diamond technology was never used in the days of swinging swords(It was iron age). Was not used for picks and axes either however that doesnt rule out it cant.

Im sure a sword could be made strong and sharp with diamond tip technology, although a traditional enthusiast would rather an original Katana or a Longsword and so on.

Maybe we all just looking into it a bit too far lol, after all it is just a game that could have a paper sword if we really wanted.

[Napiophelios]

Maybe we all just looking into it a bit too far lol, after all it is just a game that could have a paper sword if we really wanted.

Nah we are just talkin it thru :)

Most people play games as a little break from reality anyways,
so I think these kind of things are fitting...hell we have air swords too don't we?

What seems unreal and impossible can always be blamed on magic anyways.
I like diamond pick-axes and stone swords myself however unrealistic they are.