FOSS gamedev and creative worlds

Ive been thinking about it for roughly a week now. And i gotta say, this just ain't fun no more.
Firstly, the game itself - i had 25 FPS with my (6yr old) ati card. Then i upgraded to a new video card, FPS went to 60, and started going back down again with new versions of minetest. Mods like 4seasons that used to run ok now lag the server to no end. The ideas i hadn't done yet have become impossible to implement. (citiesXL 2012 runs better in wine, btw)

Secondly, modding - im disappointed in the way things turned out. Maybe im abit idealistic, but when i think "opensource" and "wtfpl" i assume people are going to want to make things better. Instead people just copy all the useful features, sometimes the entire mod, and no one brings any new features to the table (moving shit around and/or changing textures don't count). I don't want to write mods that are only going to be unique for a day or two, and i don't want to contribute when i know what's gonna happen. When i joined this community, we still had the same ideas, but everyone had a wildly different way of implementing them, i dont know how we lost that diversity.

Lastly is the hierarchy of the project itself - which is ironically, nonfree and undemocratic. Everything is centrally controlled, suggestions and concerns are too easily dismissed, and from what i hear and what ive experienced, people are insulted for making them. Just because someone knows C++ doesn't mean they know how to deal with people or build a viable community.

Im not looking for a debate, im just being honest about why this doesn't motivate me anymore. If the game (re)becomes playable and people get creative again, let me know :-)

~mauvebic

mauvebic wrote:Secondly, modding - im disappointed in the way things turned out. Maybe im abit idealistic, but when i think "opensource" and "wtfpl" i assume people are going to want to make things better. Instead people just copy all the useful features, sometimes the entire mod, and no one brings any new features to the table. I don't want to write mods that are only going to be unique for a day or two, and i don't want to contribute when i know what's gonna happen. When i joined this community, we still had the same ideas, but everyone had a wildly different way of implementing them, i dont know how we lost that diversity.

I agree with you. There are so many useless mods that just add some new colors to nodes or big tools. We need mods that add something new and not rewritten mods with new colors.

mauvebic wrote:Ive been thinking about it for roughly a week now. And i gotta say, this just ain't fun no more.

Firstly, the game itself - i had 25 FPS with my (6yr old) ati card. Then i upgraded to a new video card, FPS went to 60, and started going back down again with new versions of minetest. Mods like 4seasons that used to run ok now lag the server to no end. The ideas i hadn't done yet have become impossible to implement. (citiesXL 2012 runs better in wine, btw)

Secondly, modding - im disappointed in the way things turned out. Maybe im abit idealistic, but when i think "opensource" and "wtfpl" i assume people are going to want to make things better. Instead people just copy all the useful features, sometimes the entire mod, and no one brings any new features to the table (moving shit around andor changing textures don't count). I don't want to write mods that are only going to be unique for a day or two, and i don't want to contribute when i know what's gonna happen. When i joined this community, we still had the same ideas, but everyone had a wildly different way of implementing them, i dont know how we lost that diversity.

Lastly is the hierarchy of the project itself - which is ironically, nonfree and undemocratic. Everything is centrally controlled, suggestions and concerns are too easily dismissed, and from what i hear and what ive experienced, people are insulted for making them. Just because someone knows C++ doesn't mean they know how to deal with people or build a viable community.

Im not looking for a debate, im just being honest about why this doesn't motivate me anymore. If the game (re)becomes playable and people get creative again, let me know :-)

~mauvebic

First off let me say you're my favorite person on here. Mainly because we think alike, are creative, and don't care much for process. There are different types of people in this world, those who hold things together by being process people, and those who are creative. The world needs both. Yes people are going to copy your stuff. That's because you're a creative type, and that's the sincerest form of flattery. But you are right, without enough creative people a project just dies. Minetest does have a shortage of creative people, that's why it needs you. But don't expect credit, or for folks to make your life easy. Aint gonna happen. You by your very nature are going to rock the boat and catch flack for it. Just know that you are extremely valued by many of us here. Aint gonna be able to replace you. It's ok if you want to take a sanity break every now and again. Just don't leave for good. ;) You make Minetest fun for everyone else.

Can't tell anything about coding the main-project, so I focus on mod coding.

I have to admit that I was also inspired by your lights mod for my walking-light mod. To be honest, I download all the interesting mods (most by mauvebic and PilzAdam) and try to learn from them (I'm totally new to LUA). Of cause, creating a mod, which "invents" tools more durable then pick_mese is... well, <put in your own word> ;-)

Please keep up the good work. You inspire a lot of us newbies.

Don't whine. If you don't like that some guys copy your mods, don't release them under wtfpl/similar license. If you don't like hierarchy of this project, make your own fork. Nobody makes you to install mods that are "moving shit around and/or changing textures".

Im not looking for a debate

Then why did you create this topic?

PilzAdam
You've written some of the most original mods to appear recently :-) Hopefully you dont get sucked into this crap with people who's main skills are Ctrl C + V, you should also know the lousiest ones will give you the most trouble (ie.: segfault22, deathdealer, ...) lol

neuromancer
You're one of the few who read the comments and used the code to produce something new and different. You should keep writing mods :-) As for me, like you say it's not about credit, But when people just plain clone shit, and they take the credit, when your mods have 0 adoption on servers because all the relevant features are promptly copied, you can't just sit there looking like a jackass and not say anything. And when i do say something and propose alternatives, suddenly im the bad person.

As if the current processes weren't annoying and time-consuming enough, people want to centralize things further, which is one way to guarantee people get mediocre content, and since i wouldn't contribute under such a system, and im not happy with the present one, there's really nothing i can do.

I'll still check in from time to time, im curious to see what certain people will come up with now lol

Echo
Walking light is pretty damn original :-) Thats what people are supposed to do when they look at source mods.

xyz wrote:Don't whine. If you don't like that some guys copy your mods, don't release them under wtfpl/similar license.

That's exactly the kind of defense ive come to expect from the management. I use open licenses so people feel free to improve stuff. WTFPL ~= copy everything, change credits. I should have to obfuscate my code or compile it to prevent people from cloning it? if thats the kindof modders you want, you'll soon find there wont be enough original content to copy.

If you don't like hierarchy of this project, make your own fork.

I wouldn't be the first, but i am interested in what jordach's doing, i might get behind that instead.

Nobody makes you to install mods that are "moving shit around and/or changing textures".

Im not quite sure what that means.

Then why did you create this topic?

Because just disappearing would be rude, and some people do want to know why.
And with a dozen mods to my name, people should know not to expect updates for a while.

I suspect you think this is about the doors, but we already settled that. And its not like i named you, or mods, or anyone else in regards to copying, hence, avoiding debates over specific mods / issues that i'm beyond caring about now.

mauvebic wrote:That's exactly the kind of defense ive come to expect from the management.

No, that's my own thoughts.

mauvebic wrote:I use open licenses so people feel free to improve stuff. WTFPL ~= copy everything, change credits.

Read license text before using it. WTFPL = "do what the fuck you want with my code". Even stealing, changing credits, etc.

mauvebic wrote:I should have to obfuscate my code or compile it to prevent people from cloning it?

Just use some other license for your mods.

mauvebic wrote:if thats the kindof modders you want, you'll soon find there wont be enough original content to copy.

No, I didn't say that.

mauvebic wrote:I suspect you think this is about the doors

No.

I don't think a strict license will stop people from doing what they want. And weather people are copying the code or the concept, at the end of the day, you still have many similar mods trying to fill the same niche. I simply don't want to compete like that, and i assume people can keep innovating' without me :-)

mauvebic wrote:I don't think a strict license will stop people from doing what they want.

That'd stop them from releasing such mods.

They could make you an moderator. That's a scary thought for all of us, I know. You speak your mind and well I can see why xyz and others aren't your best friends. That's politics. It's not a good idea to take shots at those in positions of power. Hell you've even taken more than a few shots at celeron. But you have to realize when you call out and take shots at those in positions of power you are going to pay a price. There's probably a reason why it took a while for your mods to get moved. I'm just sayin. I'm not saying you should tone your rhetoric down. It's kind of refreshing, but you gots to pay the piper and that isn't fair but it's reality.

to xyz, and all the others that mauvebic has pissed off over time, you have to realize that that's just mauvebic being mauvbic. He really does mean well, and just wants things to be better. But I can't say as I blame you for being pissed at him.

Mavebic, I love you, you nut!

Neuromancer wrote:that that's just mauvebic being mauvbic

Who the hell is mauvbic? :)

That'd stop them from releasing such mods.

I guess its a personal dilemma. On the one hand, i dont like clone mods (lack of effort, originality, etc.). but on the other hand, i dont want to stop people from learning, and/or bringing improvements if they can, thats a justifiable reason to fork. my first mod was a fork of moreblocks after all, but they dont look at all the same now lol.

mauvebic wrote:

That'd stop them from releasing such mods.

I guess its a personal dilemma. On the one hand, i dont like clone mods (lack of effort, originality, etc.). but on the other hand, i dont want to stop people from learning, and/or bringing improvements if they can, thats a justifiable reason to fork. my first mod was a fork of moreblocks after all, but they dont look at all the same now lol.

Can I roll a clock back to here?

http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1012

That was the ORIGINAL iteration of the Wool Mod; before it's first ever fix; update whatever, I did not even bother with a license. I even broke my own rules; I made it on a laptop with missing keys; 's' and 'o'.

Panes was the result of Menche talking about thin glasslike blocks; so panes was created.

I made those mods because they had not been done; or probably, just so draconian that my method was faster.

-----

Mauvebic; you are no jackass, you never pissed me off, I also think you helped me with one of my mods, (when it broke) and some other cool stuff along the way, creativity is very hard when you are limited to a fixed point engine; if you decide to make a fork and celeron rejects it; (http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=951) that never made it, and that's the problem, we just have one guy making things work around here; the modders are bending the the engine. That's my problem, it has been done before, but is very hard to make something that is not the same as another thing. Yes, the engine is flexible, but not enough.

Neuromancer wrote:They could make you an moderator. That's a scary thought for all of us, I know. You speak your mind and well I can see why xyz and others aren't your best friends. That's politics. It's not a good idea to take shots at those in positions of power. Hell you've even taken more than a few shots at celeron. But you have to realize when you call out and take shots at those in positions of power you are going to pay a price. There's probably a reason why it took a while for your mods to get moved. I'm just sayin. I'm not saying you should tone your rhetoric down. It's kind of refreshing, but you gots to pay the piper and that isn't fair but it's reality.

to xyz, and all the others that mauvebic has pissed off over time, you have to realize that that's just mauvebic being mauvbic. He really does mean well, and just wants things to be better. But I can't say as I blame you for being pissed at him.

Mavebic, I love you, you nut!

I sincerely doubt things are that bad between me and some of the moderators. I have complained about the time it takes to move threads, ive objected to the system we use to publish mods, and i have asked for the power to move my own mods so i wouldn't have to harass moderators constantly to do it for me. People can either take it personally, or deal and be done with it. I dont drag these things out. As for celeron, my opinion of him didn't turn until recently.

But yeah, it was pretty clear i rocked the boat with some of my ideas.

mauvebic wrote:(moving shit around and/or changing textures don't count)

It certainly does; if a mod has crappy textures, creating good textures will make the mod better, definitely.

Stay at the keyboard, soldier. We've got a million or so monkeys running around; we'll eventually produce Shakespeare's works. Not.

It is a bit idealistic to assume that every player is a decent coder and that every coder will make innovations. Some of our most beloved mods (4seasons) are not pioneers, but simply better designed than the trailblazer (seasons) that preceded it. In any given community, there's a 1:10:1000 ratio in play, that is to say: for every one C++ coder, there are 10 decent modders. For every ten decent modders, there are a thousand players. Problems tend to arise when people forget this one fact.

Arguably, the most important modder to ever come to Minetest is sfan5. Next up on the list is Jeija. Sapier brought us animals - I'll rate him third.

Myself, I can't code a lick. This, despite having brought the first automated economy to Minetest (Search Automated Trader). This, despite creating Hatchets. Or any other mod I've done. Unlike other non-coding modders, I've seen gaps that I can fill, and I do my best to fill them. Still, you can't expect that others who can't code will be like me.

minetest-c55 is Celeron's personal vision of what minetest should be. You're free to fork; some of our best coders forked, and features were eventually ported to minetest - like Kahrl's nodebox and stairs. I've forked, once - maintaining a fork of an old version was getting tiring, so I eventually dropped it. It's called moldtest if you're interested.

Quit spanking the babies; they don't know any better. Try to recruit them, however, to make exisiting mods better. Better textures. They could also bring a new view on features to the table. Don't bite 'em, hire 'em!

I'll comment on a few things here, as I happened to look at this thread.

First of all, it is inherent to making anything new that somebody will copy it and try to make it suit their needs. Not properly giving credit is a problem, copying something is not.

mauvebic wrote:ive objected to the system we use to publish mods,

If you can point me to a description of a better practical system, I can consider it. No, making Mod Releases a free-to-post section isn't an option; it immediately went completely crapshit when it initially was so.

tinoesroho wrote:minetest-c55 is Celeron's personal vision of what minetest should be

No it really isn't. It is my personal vision mixed somewhat by contributors limited by the lack of time, resources and my ability of managing them, and reshaped by the unpredictable needs of users. And yes, that makes it a whole lot different.

celeron55 wrote:If you can point me to a description of a better practical system, I can consider it. No, making Mod Releases a free-to-post section isn't an option; it immediately went completely crapshit when it initially was so.

The mods should be rated by the community. So the real good mods will be seen by everyone and the others (that are just copies of the good mods) will be ignored.

The problem with that idea is, suppose you release a really good mod, then someone improves on it - who should get the "spotlight" in such a case?

VanessaE wrote:The problem with that idea is, suppose you release a really good mod, then someone improves on it - who should get the "spotlight" in such a case?

It depends on many things:

Speed

Memory usage

Cleanliness of code

Commented code

Originality

VanessaE wrote:The problem with that idea is, suppose you release a really good mod, then someone improves on it - who should get the "spotlight" in such a case?

The programmers who realy improve mods will give credits to the original mod. But the copy-and-paste-modders wont do this and they will get bad ratings.

everyone can be creative, but are a few who you know to create the code to shape ideas, I for example do not know much about lua, and less than C + +, and if so would have already created a lot of things, but when they appeared nodebox the stairs, found my opportunity to be creative, but I'm just the one who has created a toilet ... and has taken me months to get it to work ...

you have good ideas, PilzAdam also has them, and also you know create ...

the others we need which spoon-feed us, and a lot of effort and frustration to create something ...

Master, we are thy Padawans ...

sorry for my bad English

The problem with getting proper credit and/or exposure is that the copy/paste modders obviously have a lot more time to keep bumping their threads than the people doing the actual coding.

A free to post system on a forum doesn't work. Thats why i say even the shittiest classified ads system would be better, because at least then you could sort by criteria, least important of which being who posted last.

For a sql database test, i have started to make a new mod sorting system

mauvebic i love your mods dude, they are probably the most used mods that i have!
Maybe you should in future, create some epic mods but don't post links to them... only give the links out to users who request them! But i guess the moderators will get butt hurt by this and close you down.
IMO 50% of the moderators on this site suck ass, its time for a re-shuffle and keep things fresh!

i am a member but i forgot my password lol

Getting rid of moderators (yikes) or changing them doesn't solve the issue of how and when content is made available. The only thing i find disproportionate is that our moderators are being asked to both keep the forums clean and vet content, also while they maintain/dev their own mods. Honestly, i couldn't do 3 things at once and expect to stay on top of things. And the result is obvious when you have a backlog of mods and /server threads that need their own demilitarized zones lol

The basic job description of a moderator is to keep things clean and friendly. If we really need people to vet content, then they should be specifically chosen for the task, with clear guidelines (like first come first serve). One thing that drove me nuts here is how one moderator would move my shit to releases, and another one would move it back to general a few hours later lol

I am making a new mod forum/database classified mod listing/rating system, which will fit this. (the mod, texture tweek getting all credit)

New Minetest Mod Forum

Keep me posted :-)

something like this would be nice : http://xlnation.net/xlex

Imo, celeron should include some mods in the original game. Right now, it hasnt many things and if celeron has no time to prog on his own, he could just copy them.