FOSS gamedev and creative worlds

Posted: **Tue Mar 19, 2013 20:28**

The recent changes to lava behavior had caused some pretty intense discussion. I though this would be a good time to post a topic for people to explain what they think of Minecraft features being added to Minetest.

My opinion:
Being the same type of game, Minetest and Minecraft are going to have some inevitible similarities, like tools that dig different materials and various types of materials that occur in real life. As Minetest progresses, some features are going to be similar to Minecraft, and I have no problem with that. We can look to Minecraft to see how they do basic things, and use concepts that have a parallel elsewhere.

Some people, however, seem to have been making random features based entirely on Minecraft. For example, the new lava system is based on Minecraft. Renewable water but non-renewable lava, flowing lava producing a different material from still lava, and near-indestructible obsidian have no parallels to real life, literature, or anything besides Minecraft. This makes us look like an uncreative clone.

See this thread from the Minecraft forums. Many of the Minecrafters seem to think Minetest is just a ripoff, and that it's only advantage is it is lighter. You could argue that some are just trolling, but really, Minetest can diverge from Minecraft much more without just being different to be different.

Posted: **Tue Mar 19, 2013 20:33**

First the obsidian was my pull request but in my defence I had it where lava source and water made obsidian GLASS but pilzadam changed it so now you have to make obsidian glass from rock. Also my way had hard obsidian be be made by cooking shares in a furnace because that was the only way. High pressured furnace supposedly. So my pull request was life like.

Posted: **Tue Mar 19, 2013 20:44**

jojoa1997 wrote:First the obsidian was my pull request but in my defence I had it where lava source and water made obsidian GLASS but pilzadam changed it so now you have to make obsidian glass from rock. Also my way had hard obsidian be be made by cooking shares in a furnace because that was the only way. High pressured furnace supposedly. So my pull request was life like.

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

Code: Select all: Mär 17 17:33:08 <PilzAdam> jojoa1997, what do you think about this? https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest_game/commit/e82c12282233113774e6f55f459fb89a457a981c Mär 17 17:34:34 <jojoa1997> pilzadam it looks nice

Posted: **Tue Mar 19, 2013 20:51**

We have no legal obligation to not copy Minecraft. The concept of a "game where you mine and build stuff" is not patented.

BC_Programming wrote:Minetest, on the other hand, doesn't- as far as I can tell- have anything unique, and it doesn't extend Minecraft in any direction.

See the above quote; there's nothing wrong in copying Minecraft; but we should definitely add new features to it, like colored lights or movement features like walljumping.

Fun fact: from time to time, I work on a Minetest game that tries to be as close as Minecraft as possible (including looks, some textures have been tweaked to look like Minecraft's!).

* Calinou clicks on his watch, 54 times this topic has been discussed now.

Posted: **Tue Mar 19, 2013 20:54**

Menche wrote:See this thread from the Minecraft forums. Many of the Minecrafters seem to think Minetest is just a ripoff, and that it's only advantage is it is lighter. You could argue that some are just trolling, but really, Minetest can diverge from Minecraft much more without just being different to be different.

I can't accept this as an argument. Even if Minetest would be in all points different (except that it is a block-based sandbox game) the "Minecrafter" would still claim that "Minetest is just a ripoff".

Minetest is kinda similar to Minecraft, true. And when we "copy" features of Minecraft, who cares? In my opinion Minetest is to become a better Minecraft. But that includes of cause also Minecraft features...

Posted: **Tue Mar 19, 2013 21:02**

I think Minecraft has some good features, some neutral features, and some downright awful features.

The problem come when we sample features from all three groups. It would be preferable to come up with our own features, but copying Minecraft's good and neutral features isn't inherently a bad thing.

It all comes down to WHY we are copying them. Are we copying them because we like the feature, and actually think it would be good in our game? Or are we copying it just to be like in Minecraft?

For example, the new lava mechanics suck. There is no good reason to make lava more difficult to use. Think about our lava moats and lava-light ceilings. Lava has been a simple yet valuable resource for us, and taking away its ease of use is just wrong.

Posted: **Tue Mar 19, 2013 21:09**

PilzAdam wrote:
jojoa1997 wrote:First the obsidian was my pull request but in my defence I had it where lava source and water made obsidian GLASS but pilzadam changed it so now you have to make obsidian glass from rock. Also my way had hard obsidian be be made by cooking shares in a furnace because that was the only way. High pressured furnace supposedly. So my pull request was life like.

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.
Code: Select all
Mär 17 17:33:08 <PilzAdam> jojoa1997, what do you think about this? https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest_game/commit/e82c12282233113774e6f55f459fb89a457a981c Mär 17 17:34:34 <jojoa1997> pilzadam it looks nice

I didn't know you switched it. I thought you meant how did the texture look. Though I am still iffy about the new Way to make obsidian but since you made lava unrenewable I am kinda regretting wanting obsidian since it made lava unrenewable.

Posted: **Tue Mar 19, 2013 21:19**

Edited my post a bit, perhaps I was unclear that I don't mind using Minecraft features that make sense, such as cobble coming from stone (if you break stone, it's going to be cracked) and cooking sand into glass (a simplification of how it can be done in real life).

Posted: **Tue Mar 19, 2013 21:25**

jojoa1997 wrote:
PilzAdam wrote:
jojoa1997 wrote:First the obsidian was my pull request but in my defence I had it where lava source and water made obsidian GLASS but pilzadam changed it so now you have to make obsidian glass from rock. Also my way had hard obsidian be be made by cooking shares in a furnace because that was the only way. High pressured furnace supposedly. So my pull request was life like.

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.
Code: Select all
Mär 17 17:33:08 <PilzAdam> jojoa1997, what do you think about this? https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest_game/commit/e82c12282233113774e6f55f459fb89a457a981c Mär 17 17:34:34 <jojoa1997> pilzadam it looks nice
I didn't know you switched it. I thought you meant how did the texture look. Though I am still iffy about the new Way to make obsidian but since you made lava unrenewable I am kinda regretting wanting obsidian since it made lava unrenewable.

It's not your fault, Jojoa. Take another look at that commit. It doesn't make lava finite at all. He added finite lava in a separate commit.

Posted: **Tue Mar 19, 2013 21:29**

0gb.us wrote:
jojoa1997 wrote:
PilzAdam wrote:
Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.
Code: Select all
Mär 17 17:33:08 <PilzAdam> jojoa1997, what do you think about this? https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest_game/commit/e82c12282233113774e6f55f459fb89a457a981c Mär 17 17:34:34 <jojoa1997> pilzadam it looks nice
I didn't know you switched it. I thought you meant how did the texture look. Though I am still iffy about the new Way to make obsidian but since you made lava unrenewable I am kinda regretting wanting obsidian since it made lava unrenewable.

It's not your fault, Jojoa. Take another look at that commit. It doesn't make lava finite at all. He added finite lava in a separate commit.

yeah but he said he did it to make obsidian rare

Posted: **Tue Mar 19, 2013 21:36**

jojoa1997 wrote:
0gb.us wrote:
jojoa1997 wrote:I didn't know you switched it. I thought you meant how did the texture look. Though I am still iffy about the new Way to make obsidian but since you made lava unrenewable I am kinda regretting wanting obsidian since it made lava unrenewable.

It's not your fault, Jojoa. Take another look at that commit. It doesn't make lava finite at all. He added finite lava in a separate commit.
yeah but he said he did it to make obsidian rare

I guess you can look at it that way. But you only wanted to add something that happened to be renewable to the game, not take away renewable lava. He is the one that decided for no good reason that it had to be rare. And he gave you a choice without even telling you the consequences of the choice. If he thought adding obsidian needed to make lava finite, he should have told you that.

EDIT: Typo

Posted: **Tue Mar 19, 2013 21:40**

0gb.us wrote:
jojoa1997 wrote:
0gb.us wrote:It's not your fault, Jojoa. Take another look at that commit. It doesn't make lava finite at all. He added finite lava in a separate commit.
yeah but he said he did it to make obsidian rare

I guess you can look at it that way. But you only wanted to add something that happened to be renewable to the game, not take away renewable lava. He is the one that decided for no good reason that it had to be rare. And he gave you a choice without even telling you the consequences of the choice. If he thought adding obsidian needed to make lava finite, he should have told you that.

EDIT: Typo

Yes, I am the devil >:-)

Posted: **Tue Mar 19, 2013 21:47**

PilzAdam wrote:Yes, I am the devil >:-)

I swear, I wonder sometime. You make some awesome changes to the game, but you also make awful changes. With you, it's a mixed bag. I never know what to expect from you.

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 01:04**

0gb.us wrote:
PilzAdam wrote:Yes, I am the devil >:-)

I swear, I wonder sometime. You make some awesome changes to the game, but you also make awful changes. With you, it's a mixed bag. I never know what to expect from you.

I think that's pretty normal. Everyone has a slightly diffrent opinion about how the game ought to be. It seems PilzAdam just liked the way obsidian exists in Minecraft (though to my knowledge he dosn't play it) and included it into the game. Making lava more rare is not a bad idea from a certain point of view...it reduces the damage griefers can cause.

Maybe new features for minetest_game (and the general direction into which it should go) ought to be discussed here more frequently. There are many legitimate opinions one can have about a certain feature, and they can all be valid for diffrent people/situations. With more discussions here, maybe we can avoid a standstill. After all, the game ought to develop. minetest_game is a poor game compared to what you get if you add the (for you!) right mods.

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 01:15**

Sokomine wrote: After all, the game ought to develop. minetest_game is a poor game compared to what you get if you add the (for you!) right mods.

Although this is true, I think one of the key differences between minetest and craft is that minetest is built around modding (it's literally impossible to play without mods, if you include the default ones), whereas minecraft is designed as a game (albeit a fairly weak one), with modding as an afterthought (it still lacks an api).

However, the default mods of minetest still try to emulate the survival mode of minecraft, which is certainly an issue. To me, at least, default survival mode should try to be more like Terraria or other games, where combat or survival are more important than they are.

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 01:15**

One thing i like about minecraft is
1) changeable tetures ingam. I can change my texture in the middle of digging for blocks. I know 0gb would like this cause if he finds a certain texture pack he likes and he is mining he can switch to his mining texturepack.
2)mobs. i wish there were light mobs in minetest game. with minetest being defined by lua it might be best to make their movements and stuff in C++ and let us define in lua.
3)armor. armor can be applied to soo many things.

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 01:22**

jojoa1997 wrote:One thing i like about minecraft is
1) changeable tetures ingam. I can change my texture in the middle of digging for blocks. I know 0gb would like this cause if he finds a certain texture pack he likes and he is mining he can switch to his mining texturepack.

* 0gb.us uses his mining texture pack even when not mining.

Although, I am in favour of adding a GUI way to do anything, and texture packs are no exception.

jojoa1997 wrote:2)mobs. i wish there were light mobs in minetest game. with minetest being defined by lua it might be best to make their movements and stuff in C++ and let us define in lua.

It would be nice to have a few enemies. Enemies open up some new doors. Although I would prefer them lack the destructive capabilities they once had. It's fun when they can kill players, it's not fun when they kill your creations.

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 01:23**

With the reference to minecraft forums that has a super out of date view on minetest. They should update to show how wonderful we have become. Also does anyone know who the author of that topic is?

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 01:25**

0gb.us wrote:It would be nice to have a few enemies. Enemies open up some new doors. Although I would prefer them lack the destructive capabilities they once had. It's fun when they can kill players, it's not fun when they kill your creations.

What's even the point though, if you can seal yourself in your fortress and enemies never get in? At the very least, I'd like configurable difficulties (easy-normal, enemies can't affect your blocks, on hard they break down doors or pick up blocks)

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 01:36**

10twenty4 wrote:
0gb.us wrote:It would be nice to have a few enemies. Enemies open up some new doors. Although I would prefer them lack the destructive capabilities they once had. It's fun when they can kill players, it's not fun when they kill your creations.

What's even the point though, if you can seal yourself in your fortress and enemies never get in? At the very least, I'd like configurable difficulties (easy-normal, enemies can't affect your blocks, on hard they break down doors or pick up blocks)

he said enemies that open doors. also the dungeon master was over powered i tried the 0.4.x that last had mobs in C++ the fireball destroyed a 3x3x3 block and the firebll would go through stone.

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 01:40**

jojoa1997 wrote:he said enemies that open doors. also the dungeon master was over powered i tried the 0.4.x that last had mobs in C++ the fireball destroyed a 3x3x3 block and the firebll would go through stone.

He meant open doors as a metaphor, as in it provides new possibilities. And it would certainly need a lot of balancing and counters, to keep it fair. Enemies shouldn't just obliterate your structures, but if they can the enemy should be rare, or there should be ways to counter that.

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 01:43**

my npc mod has a short amount of code that lets them open doors

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 01:57**

10twenty4 wrote:
0gb.us wrote:It would be nice to have a few enemies. Enemies open up some new doors. Although I would prefer them lack the destructive capabilities they once had. It's fun when they can kill players, it's not fun when they kill your creations.

What's even the point though, if you can seal yourself in your fortress and enemies never get in? At the very least, I'd like configurable difficulties (easy-normal, enemies can't affect your blocks, on hard they break down doors or pick up blocks)

The point would be to give people who like fighting something to fight. And they would be rewarded for their conquests with rare item drops (but only occasionally). You'd have to actually go out and fight them to get the reward.

Also, for example, the dungeon master might be able to throw fireballs that don't themselves cause damage, but do start fires. So stronger fire-resistant materials would be safe, while wooden structures would burn down. The other effect of this would be that servers that remove fire to protect wooden buildings also wouldn't have to deal with monsters destroying all the houses.

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 02:10**

We can use some MC features just not all of them.
Minecraft isn't really a mining game anymore, what do enchant's have to do with mining?
Minetest is a better game then minecraft, we do have some elements of minecraft (such as the same crafting recipes)
maybe we could "alter" the crafting recipes of MT like crafting a torch:

S= Stick
C=Coal

C
S
S
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A building game called Manic Digger has a crafting table, however you cannot craft tools, only blocks, the crafting table is also spread out on the ground, this video demonstrates it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5BSgDEeZCs
However that video is outdated, i am not sure if manic digger has a new crafting system. IMO Minetest should not have a crafting table like MC's we should still keep the current crafting table system in minetest.
A crafting table like Manic Diggers would be intresting, however it would be annoying to dig up your crafting table if you needed it when you were going in a mine, exploring ect.

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 02:16**

Josh wrote:We can use some MC features just not all of them.
Minecraft isn't really a mining game anymore, what do enchant's have to do with mining?
Minetest is a better game then minecraft, we do have some elements of minecraft (such as the same crafting recipes)
maybe we could "alter" the crafting recipes of MT like crafting a torch:

S= Stick
C=Coal

C
S
S
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A building game called Manic Digger has a crafting table, however you cannot craft tools, only blocks, the crafting table is also spread out on the ground, this video demonstrates it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5BSgDEeZCs
However that video is outdated, i am not sure if manic digger has a new crafting system. IMO Minetest should not have a crafting table like MC's we should still keep the current crafting table system in minetest.
A crafting table like Manic Diggers would be intresting, however it would be annoying to dig up your crafting table if you needed it when you were going in a mine, exploring ect.

i say it is pointless to change the recipes we have now. they are good the way they are.also the way they craft would be cool but i dont think that it is vey productive and would be very anoyying.

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 03:09**

I wish that it was easier to find crafting recipies, like have a book of recipies in the inventory (separate from your inventory where you keep stuff, and you click on it and it shows all the crafting recipies) I know there is a mod, but it would be nice if it came as a default.
Crafting recipie for book:
P = paper
W = wood planks

W P W
W P W
W P W

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 03:17**

But how would we know how to create the recipe book without the recipe book to show us the recipe?

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 03:19**

then we get it when the world starts

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 03:26**

The people I know who do not like Minetest complain that it is a copy of Minecraft and then criticize it for not having the same features as minecraft eg. workbenches... -.-
(you can't win)

Posted: **Wed Mar 20, 2013 03:45**

Says Minetest is a Minecraft clone.
Complains that Minetest doesn't have things Minecraft has.
Intelligence.

FOSS gamedev and creative worlds

Using Minecraft Features

Using Minecraft Features