leave or not to leave this and the question

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babe223
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leave or not to leave this and the question

by babe223 » Mon May 13, 2013 23:25

the course of this time I'm here I see many people with the same purpose or aindo really irritated with minetest (irritated can be various reasons I will not put in question now) Well I still think minetest has a hope of becoming a good game for now we iguasinhos to minecraft when he started.
well I never infringed any rule mintest more'm considering leaving minetest trist and see why people make mods excelent, excelent nothing extraordinary, they basically leaves minetest why wearied him saw that he has no chance of being a good game and it will be forgotten, I do not know yet whether or not leaves minetest'm thinking long before making this decision...:/
Bem vindos Brasileiros,eu sou primeiro brasileiro daqui do forum, espero que tragam bastante mods

[MOD] torch http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3021
[MOD]HATCHE:http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3458
 

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by Inocudom » Mon May 13, 2013 23:43

There is a new mapgen in the works (mapgen v7) and a mod was made recently that allows for the usage of custom 3D models in Minetest. I am pretty certain that this is the best open source game for building things out of nodes there is. Things like memory leak fixes and other bug fixes have been done to the Github version of Minetest (try a recent dev build.) Landmine was banned from the forums and MasterGollum is with us once again.
 

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by hmmmm » Wed May 15, 2013 00:13

What's going on with this constant commotion about people "leaving"?
Minetest is a game, not some sort of club. If you like playing the game, then just play it. If you're not in the mood to play it, you certainly don't have to.
There is no need for these sorts of theatrics.
 

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by tinoesroho » Wed May 15, 2013 13:49

hmmmm wrote:What's going on with this constant commotion about people "leaving"?
Minetest is a game, not some sort of club. If you like playing the game, then just play it. If you're not in the mood to play it, you certainly don't have to.
There is no need for these sorts of theatrics.

Wish I could "like" this.

The main reason people leave these days is personality clashes with the core-devs (PilzAdam in particular). The funniest thing as that the original reasons are no longer valid, the source having long since been patched. And you know what? Nobody's forcing you to play Pilz's version of Minetest. With the advent of Lua Mods, you get to make Minetest your own. Don't like Obsidian? You can patch it out.

... and really, we started as a Minecraft clone. Now look: we're a bloody fully configurable freaking game and engine. Anything can be changed. DO IT TO IT!
We are what we create.

I tinker and occasionally make (lousy) mods. Currently building an MMO subgame and updating mods. Pirate Party of Canada member. Sporadic author. 21 years old.

My github:
https://github.com/tinoesroho/
 

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by hdastwb » Wed May 22, 2013 04:27

tinoesroho wrote:Now look: we're a bloody [fully configurable freaking game] and engine. Anything can be changed. DO IT TO IT!


English doesn't really have grouping markers, though I think they are really needed in this instance. The game itself is fully configurable and exposes most of the server functionality via a well-made Lua interface.

However, the engine is an entirely different story; we only have one engine and any change to said engine must go through the core devs, who seem to have lately taken to outright rejecting outside code and doing it in such a rude manner as to bring many people who have wanted to contribute to anger. The engine seems to be more or less the sole property of the core devs, thus, if you are playing on the Minetest engine, in a way you are forced to play Pilz's version of minetest.

As controversial as PilzAdam's Minecraftization changes have been (and as stupid and useless as Obsidian is in this game), I think the main tide of people leaving has been (or at least originally was) due to engine development clashes and not things that one can mod out in Lua.

Besides basic civility, it seems to me that the main problem here is communication. prestidigitator, in one of the clearest examples of abuse by the devs, had believed that he had their support in the large amount of effort that he put into making a more flexible model for noise generation, only to get not only his code but also his coding style brutally rejected when it came time to pull-request them. At the very least, the devs should either make it clearer that they don't intend to accept code from outsiders or they should decide to actually open the development of the engine more to the community. Urging people to get involved and then shunning them is not the way to go.

Honestly, though, I've been out of the fray for a while, so feel free to correct me if the situation has changed significantly in my absence.
 

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by shaneroach » Wed May 22, 2013 04:41

Open source is a different business model. You want something from this engine, you build it yourself or pay someone to make the changes you want. The one thing that never makes any sense to me is people "leaving" open source.

You can't leave, babe223. It will be every bit as free to you ten years from now as it was when you "left". There is nothing to leave. It is a gift.

I don't think you get it... Anyhow, hate to see anyone leave upset, but there's literally nothing between you and making this game what you want it to be but air and opportunity.
In order to change yourself, you must believe the change is possible and that there are rewards for making the change.
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by shaneroach » Wed May 22, 2013 04:47

hdastwb wrote:
Besides basic civility, it seems to me that the main problem here is communication. prestidigitator, in one of the clearest examples of abuse by the devs, had believed that he had their support in the large amount of effort that he put into making a more flexible model for noise generation, only to get not only his code but also his coding style brutally rejected when it came time to pull-request them. At the very least, the devs should either make it clearer that they don't intend to accept code from outsiders or they should decide to actually open the development of the engine more to the community. Urging people to get involved and then shunning them is not the way to go..


Fork it, remain part of the community and dev in your own direction. By remaining part of the community rather than bailing, you ensure that people still know you're alive and give yourself a shot at becoming a legit fork of your own.

Another thing I think a lot of people do not quite get about open source is that eventually you need to make money. Packaging and marketing are still important. If you really have a passion for a vision you have, sell it. Make the mods you need to get a game off the ground you want to play. Publicize it. Sell it. create a community and sell YOUR vision.

Don't get upset.... Get inspired.
In order to change yourself, you must believe the change is possible and that there are rewards for making the change.
- Inspired by Hebrews 11:6
 

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by 12Me21 » Wed May 22, 2013 04:53

Minetest has a lot of stuff that is not in minecraft
(mese, desert sand/stone, nyan cats, locked chests, ...)
but lately there have been a lot of things from minecraft added, like diamonds, obsidian, ...
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by OryHara » Wed May 22, 2013 05:11

disinformation, mese is the only thing minecraft doesnt have, lol.

as for the mudducks sayin fork it, just because this is opensource doesnt give anyone
the ok to tell their userbase fuck you, make it yourself. i say shame on this mess, the
new leaders of MT and the sheeple who blindly follow are no better then the corparate empire's
that lead the world as we know it.

i say shame on this community's entire mess, minetest has failed.
 

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by shaneroach » Wed May 22, 2013 12:35

OryHara wrote:disinformation, mese is the only thing minecraft doesnt have, lol.

as for the mudducks sayin fork it, just because this is opensource doesnt give anyone
the ok to tell their userbase fuck you, make it yourself. i say shame on this mess, the
new leaders of MT and the sheeple who blindly follow are no better then the corparate empire's
that lead the world as we know it.

i say shame on this community's entire mess, minetest has failed.


Actually it kind of does. Otherwise what you would have would be a bunch of coders forced to work for free against their will on projects they didn't care about.

This is otherwise known as slavery.....

Minetest lives!

(lol)
In order to change yourself, you must believe the change is possible and that there are rewards for making the change.
- Inspired by Hebrews 11:6
 

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by qznc » Wed May 22, 2013 13:10

hdastwb wrote:Besides basic civility, it seems to me that the main problem here is communication. prestidigitator, in one of the clearest examples of abuse by the devs, had believed that he had their support in the large amount of effort that he put into making a more flexible model for noise generation, only to get not only his code but also his coding style brutally rejected when it came time to pull-request them. At the very least, the devs should either make it clearer that they don't intend to accept code from outsiders or they should decide to actually open the development of the engine more to the community. Urging people to get involved and then shunning them is not the way to go.


My experience was not so bad.

I do not have that much time, but I wanted to help a little, so I did some maintenance work and fixed compiler warnings in the engine code. My first pull request was merged, my second was not. The fixes of the second request were done by core devs in the meantime. While the communication and rejection was not especially friendly, it was certainly not "brutal" or "abusive". My changes were neglible, so maybe it is different with broader changes, but so far I think the core devs made a good job. (Thanks guys! Way to go!)

Coding style is important and a reasonable argument to reject a pull request. The contributor should fix his code and request again. Of course, the core devs could always be friendlier to newcomers and help them fix their code, but the core devs are not obliged to do so.
 

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by hdastwb » Wed May 22, 2013 21:11

qznc wrote:Coding style is important and a reasonable argument to reject a pull request. The contributor should fix his code and request again. Of course, the core devs could always be friendlier to newcomers and help them fix their code, but the core devs are not obliged to do so.


I'm sorry for using such a vague term; what I meant was not really the formatting of the code but rather the structure of the code itself. In this instance, object orientation was used to provide the extensibility and modularity inherent to his design of the noise generation algorithms. Because the way in which the changes were written were an inherent part of the changes themselves, he couldn't really just remove the objects from them. The devs, seeing the abuse that objects tend to receive when implemented in "proper" object-oriented languages, felt that even using them responsibly as prestidigitator did would spiral into the rampant inefficiencies and code bloat that inevitably follow "true" object-oriented designs. However, I don't believe they ever stated it that way when they dismissed them…

I believe that I've seen several attempts to fork or at least provide a more open, experimental version of the game. The devs are against it, as they feel that forking would fracture the Minetest base too much and spell doom for the game. Some of the attempts at providing an alternate code base are here: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5698 or here: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5683, but it seems like many of the people behind the effort have, in fact, left.

Personally, I really like the concept of the Minetest game and I don't plan on leaving the community. I've just given up on trying to help with development. Many of the ideas that I have really don't fit in Minetest anyway, so if I do implement a voxel game, it will likely be written from scratch and have next to nothing in common with Minetest.
 

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by shaneroach » Thu May 23, 2013 03:37

hdastwb wrote:
qznc wrote:Coding style is important and a reasonable argument to reject a pull request. The contributor should fix his code and request again. Of course, the core devs could always be friendlier to newcomers and help them fix their code, but the core devs are not obliged to do so.


I'm sorry for using such a vague term; what I meant was not really the formatting of the code but rather the structure of the code itself. In this instance, object orientation was used to provide the extensibility and modularity inherent to his design of the noise generation algorithms.


Interesting. I can see how object orientation could result in code bloat, but the tradeoff is supposed to be the ability to get more folks cooperating on one project at the same time, is it not?

Seems a little off topic to me, but it is nevertheless interesting.

hdastwb wrote:I believe that I've seen several attempts to fork or at least provide a more open, experimental version of the game. The devs are against it, as they feel that forking would fracture the Minetest base too much and spell doom for the game. Some of the attempts at providing an alternate code base are here: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5698 or here: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5683, but it seems like many of the people behind the effort have, in fact, left.


The thing is open source. If the devs somehow are forbidding an official fork through Github, there's absolutely nothing stopping anyone from splitting off and doing their own thing. Most of the licensing here I've seen is extremely generous. I am not understanding the objection at all.

Having an example where one of the people deleted their own post is... counterproductive? I think... The second thread you have there is basically exactly what I am talking about, except Casimir apparently has not followed up by taking polls and leading a different team of devs to implement a more user-led or community led design paradigm.

Minetest as it stands now is basically worker owned, whereas Casimir seems to be suggesting something more on the lines of a customer owned model. That works great when customers are paying. Not so great when they are trying to tell the workers what to do without actually providing them any resources. Again, it's a lot like getting angry with people for refusing to voluntarily submit themselves to code-slavery.

The devs working on THIS version likely are already working on what they want to work on. Therefore, they do not want to spend their time working on someone else's vision. That's all.

I've seen this repeatedly with community based games. It's really quite unavoidable. If you can't or won't either code yourself or pay someone to do it, then the people who are doing the coding are going to prioritize based on what excites them. I think it is entirely appropriate to stop playing the game or being involved in the project if you do not like the way it is going, but trying to arm twist people into doing free work for you using guilt is not really a very friendly or even honest way of going about things. Volunteers should not be accused of selfishness when they give away the work they do for free.

hdastwb wrote:Personally, I really like the concept of the Minetest game and I don't plan on leaving the community. I've just given up on trying to help with development. Many of the ideas that I have really don't fit in Minetest anyway, so if I do implement a voxel game, it will likely be written from scratch and have next to nothing in common with Minetest.


And I'd love to see it! Best of luck both here with Minetest and with any other game project, voxel or otherwise, you decide to take up!
In order to change yourself, you must believe the change is possible and that there are rewards for making the change.
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by qznc » Thu May 23, 2013 08:34

hdastwb wrote:I'm sorry for using such a vague term; what I meant was not really the formatting of the code but rather the structure of the code itself. In this instance, object orientation was used to provide the extensibility and modularity inherent to his design of the noise generation algorithms. Because the way in which the changes were written were an inherent part of the changes themselves, he couldn't really just remove the objects from them. The devs, seeing the abuse that objects tend to receive when implemented in "proper" object-oriented languages, felt that even using them responsibly as prestidigitator did would spiral into the rampant inefficiencies and code bloat that inevitably follow "true" object-oriented designs. However, I don't believe they ever stated it that way when they dismissed them…

I believe that I've seen several attempts to fork or at least provide a more open, experimental version of the game. The devs are against it, as they feel that forking would fracture the Minetest base too much and spell doom for the game. Some of the attempts at providing an alternate code base are here: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5698 or here: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5683, but it seems like many of the people behind the effort have, in fact, left.

Personally, I really like the concept of the Minetest game and I don't plan on leaving the community. I've just given up on trying to help with development. Many of the ideas that I have really don't fit in Minetest anyway, so if I do implement a voxel game, it will likely be written from scratch and have next to nothing in common with Minetest.


I agree that the minetest structure is sometimes wierd. A critique of my second pull request was that it used iterators instead of a C-style for-loop. Object-orientation is even more subjective than loops.

Mixing a structure refactoring and a feature enhancement is bad practice. It makes it harder to understand the change and thus to find bugs. Imho also a valid argument for rejection. Use git-rebase to create better more separate commits.

It is sad that this drives potential contributors away. I am not sure, how the situation could be improved. It requires a lot of humility for newcomers. On the other hand the requirements for contributions seem to be out of date and not detailed enough.
 

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by qznc » Thu May 23, 2013 08:37

shaneroach wrote:The devs working on THIS version likely are already working on what they want to work on. Therefore, they do not want to spend their time working on someone else's vision. That's all.


You can alway try to excite them about different things. The problem is people often assume that two short sentences on the forum is enough (including bad grammar and spelling usually).

It seems the best way to approach the devs is the IRC channel, not the forum or github. Maybe that should be stated more vehemently.
 

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by mauvebic » Thu May 23, 2013 15:49

hdastwb wrote:
tinoesroho wrote:Now look: we're a bloody [fully configurable freaking game] and engine. Anything can be changed. DO IT TO IT!


English doesn't really have grouping markers, though I think they are really needed in this instance. The game itself is fully configurable and exposes most of the server functionality via a well-made Lua interface.

However, the engine is an entirely different story; we only have one engine and any change to said engine must go through the core devs, who seem to have lately taken to outright rejecting outside code and doing it in such a rude manner as to bring many people who have wanted to contribute to anger. The engine seems to be more or less the sole property of the core devs, thus, if you are playing on the Minetest engine, in a way you are forced to play Pilz's version of minetest.

As controversial as PilzAdam's Minecraftization changes have been (and as stupid and useless as Obsidian is in this game), I think the main tide of people leaving has been (or at least originally was) due to engine development clashes and not things that one can mod out in Lua.

Besides basic civility, it seems to me that the main problem here is communication. prestidigitator, in one of the clearest examples of abuse by the devs, had believed that he had their support in the large amount of effort that he put into making a more flexible model for noise generation, only to get not only his code but also his coding style brutally rejected when it came time to pull-request them. At the very least, the devs should either make it clearer that they don't intend to accept code from outsiders or they should decide to actually open the development of the engine more to the community. Urging people to get involved and then shunning them is not the way to go.

Honestly, though, I've been out of the fray for a while, so feel free to correct me if the situation has changed significantly in my absence.


What he said (+1). Though id like to highlight a few insightful comments from a recent slashdot article on participating in OSS, i think it serves to illustrate the problems here and in other projects:

Re:All projects need your help. (Score:5, Insightful)
by jellomizer (103300) on Monday May 20, 2013 @09:36AM (#43772899)
The problem with Open Source Software is the intense focus on the freaking source code. But for most software projects Coding source code is only 40% of the work. There is a lot of work going in Architecting, Designing, Documentation, that goes on as well. For most project they have the Coder do all the work, that is why they write a few dozen lines of code a day because they are busy doing the other stuff.


It's my party and no one else is invited (Score:5, Interesting)
by TWiTfan (2887093) on Monday May 20, 2013 @09:11AM (#43772757)
the Linux Kernel development team in particular is known for its savagery

I've found that the "It's my party and no one else is invited" syndrome permeates all too many OSS projects. Finally stopped offering to help after encountering one too many projects that act like the snobby fraternity from a bad 80's movie. Now I do my own stuff and forgo the projects that have already started.


Re:It's my party and no one else is invited (Score:4, Insightful)
by FatLittleMonkey (1341387) on Monday May 20, 2013 @03:46PM (#43775961)
I've read your comments in this thread and it is obvious that you are precisely the person everyone who has had difficulties with OSS projects is complaining about.

You've got a bunch of people who've had negative experiences and instead of listening to their experiences, instead of asking questions or adding thoughts that create an interesting and informative thread, your only interest is in proving that they are wrong. You twist their words, you pick and snipe, you grind them down until you drive them out of the thread and you "win"!

And that is a perfect example of what people face when dealing with... well, you, in OSS projects. I'd be willing to bet good money that you do exactly the same thing in help or dev forums for projects you think you're assisting. Grinding people down until they give up and leave. You do vastly more harm than good, as you have done in this very thread. I suspect it takes a dozen good contributors to make up for every one of... you. So in effect, you are not only harming newcomers, but you are cancelling out the work of many other existing contributors. Even worse if it creates a culture that encourages the same behaviour in others because of the habits they learn when trying to deal with people like you; until they become people like you. An anti-social virus.

While I know you can't read this comment (I mean actually "read" it, I'm sure you'll see some keywords to pick apart), I don't really write it for you. I'm hoping that it helps others who might recognise your behaviour in themselves and others, help them understand why what you do is so destructive. And perhaps create just a little social pressure in the other direction.


Re:It's my party and no one else is invited (Score:4, Insightful)
by BasilBrush (643681) on Monday May 20, 2013 @09:31AM (#43772857)
Better still, use your programming talents to get a programming job you enjoy. Not only will they treat you more politely than an OSS project, they'll pay you.


I know it's easier to blame the "ragequitters" - though its getting harder and harder to pretend they are isolated incidents as some of the same issues keep popping up.
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by Sokomine » Sat May 25, 2013 17:19

The problem with the "ragequitters" is that they blank their posts and try to get banned - producing blank looks on the faces of other forum readers who don't know what happened in the background and caused this behaviour.

Mod developers seem to be on the safe side as long as they stick to mod development - people may either like and use the mod or choose mods they personally like more. There's not terribly much conflict there, an easy way to get started, and lots of help around. In many cases, mods are sufficient to give the game the desired functionality/direction.

Regarding core developers, there really seem to be a lot of complaints around. It's a pity that people quit due to those conflicts. From a more or less outside perspecitve, it is hard to tell what is really going on. Part of the conflicts may be due to language barriers - please take into account that only few people here are native speakers. As long as everyone's heading into the same direction, that usually is no big problem at all. Critizisim of a work or part of a work requires more language skills in order to avoid hurting the one who did the work and get accross what needs to be improved. It also requires some social skills, and those may be in short supply. The #minetest channel sometimes is a strange place.

Please also try to understand the core developers a bit. They may already have plans, pre-set opinions about how a certain problem ought to be solved (out of the many possible ways), they may know about who's working on what, what will change in the near future into which direction etc. - they're most likely having at least some fun (while working hard for almost no thanks that arrives at their destination!) - and then there comes an optimistic new developer with code that's diffrent from what they planned/expected, does not stick entirely to (probably not completely published, rather unofficial) coding style, that demands time to check out code which does not cover the current focus of intrest of the core developer (he's working on another problem - or - even worse - on the same one in a diffrent manner) - Intruder alert! Shields up!

If you're advanced enough to be able to make pull requests to the core engine, you've most likely got enough experience and know this situation from both sides already and have been a "core developer" to some other project. People make errors, they misunderstand each other, they fight over not really important points they just think are important right now. It's unfortionately very human. There may be some ways to improve getting along (i.e. learn how to word critizism so that it leads to improvement and not battles to the death), mixing people with diffrent capabilities so that the shortcomings of one can be equalized by the strength of another, getting standards up to deal with certain situations etc. - find ways that work for your situation!

The engine is getting more and more stable, great new features are added (I like the entity-entity-collusion a lot, and the formspecs that can be called up directly from lua), there's 0.4.7 to look forward to - please try to get that problem with the new contributors solved as well. The engine got so far that you can afford to spend some time with those new contributors. Please don't leave them hurt!
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by mauvebic » Sun May 26, 2013 16:36

Im not sure 'ragequitter' is the right term to use either - I've ragequit several (FPS) games after being shot twenty times by the same douche - people here don't just instantaneously decide to quit development, and when they do quit, they tend to describe exasperation, not rage.

As for post blanking - blame the licenses ya'll force people to use. Its unfortunate that once devs have done the work and given it away with all rights for free, there's no motivation to be nice or polite to them. But if a dev is easily replaceable, so is their work, they figure. OSS works better when you have a cohesive community, not a loose coalition of cliques.

As for the friction itself, that might have something to do with the narrowing scope of development. A year ago minecraft wasn't a concern, the goal here was to have a broad and feature-full engine with which to create radically different games and worlds. Now the focus seems to strictly be emulating minecraft, and anything unrelated to that is pretty much ignored, heck even when you propose features to match MC's, they don't want it (for whatever reason). how many people care to play openciv when you can easily get the original civilisation?
Last edited by mauvebic on Sun May 26, 2013 17:23, edited 1 time in total.
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by qznc » Sun May 26, 2013 18:05

mauvebic wrote:Now the focus seems to strictly be emulating minecraft


I do not think that this is the case.

PilzAdam develops the Minitest game, which aims to be a Minecraft clone. He also develops minetest_game, the official default game for Minetest. Since PilzAdam is quite present (he writes all the News for example), but I doubt that his vision represents all the core devs. He is basically the sole developer of Minitest for example.

I do not know Minecraft, so I cannot check how much the changes for 0.4.7 display a "focus to strictly be emulating minecraft", but even if that would be the case, I see no problem for other games.
 

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by shaneroach » Sun May 26, 2013 18:11

I'm still not real clear on why you don't just start your own dev team if you think you have a model for growing the community that would work better. If your reasoning is that that is too hard, well... that's the same issue the current crop of devs have to deal with too. They have a vision that some, perhaps many, do not share. I am sure they would absolutely love it if everyone who came here was on the same page and totally committed to exactly the things they want to do.

Things hardly ever turn out like that.

I suspect things have taken a decidedly Minecraftesque turn because, well, this game looks a lot like Minecraft, draws people in who are not keen to pay the ever increasing fee for Minecraft, and I think maybe as big a thing as any, resent Minecraft for accepting all the free mod work while keeping all the profits for the engine itself in house.

I'm also going to touch the rather bizarre attempted illustration about openciv. Firstly, there is an openciv called "Freeciv", and secondly people use it because it is free.

What part of "free" is distressing you?

I remember back in the day there was a lot of distress over MUD engines because they all had these wonky licenses. So people would put months or years into a game, then not be able to port their stuff easily to their own game, couldn't get people to pay them for their work, etc. etc. etc. The key here is that the open source movement has solved that issue. You have a license to use this stuff. It is free.

If you can do it better, do it. I don't mean that as a snark. I mean, if you think you can do it better, do it, and I will come check it out and be very happy indeed if you can do it better.

Seriously.
In order to change yourself, you must believe the change is possible and that there are rewards for making the change.
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by tinoesroho » Mon May 27, 2013 16:04

As we say: if you don't like changes made, tell the devs "FORK YOU", and move on. Open source is about freedom: freedom to do what the hell you want. Don't like the behavior of wood? Write a mod- or fork minetest_game. But on the other hand, don't expect volunteers to tailor the game or engine to you specifications. They're free to do what they want- if you really want something done, throw a bounty up. Or throw money at a core. Or...

... code the thing yourself.
We are what we create.

I tinker and occasionally make (lousy) mods. Currently building an MMO subgame and updating mods. Pirate Party of Canada member. Sporadic author. 21 years old.

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by mauvebic » Mon May 27, 2013 18:18

Well whether they fork or quit, they're taking their work with them. Don't be surprised at the result if those are the only options, especially if you both encourage and disparage people for contributing :p
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by PilzAdam » Mon May 27, 2013 18:36

Why do people release their work under a free license if they dont want it to be free?
 

tinoesroho
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by tinoesroho » Tue May 28, 2013 02:07

Because they want to belong.

Seriously, though: if you release something under a free license, it cannot be revoked. Try to take it down- we will upload it. We are e-nonymous. We do not forget. Expect us.

If people don't want others to use or reupload stuff, don't use a permissive license. Just release it as "freeware" - you are free to use it, but not free to redistribute it.
We are what we create.

I tinker and occasionally make (lousy) mods. Currently building an MMO subgame and updating mods. Pirate Party of Canada member. Sporadic author. 21 years old.

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https://github.com/tinoesroho/
 

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by PilzAdam » Tue May 28, 2013 11:42

Note that this forum does not support non free mods, i.e. they will not be moved to Mod Releases.
 

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by onpon4 » Tue May 28, 2013 13:09

PilzAdam wrote:Note that this forum does not support non free mods, i.e. they will not be moved to Mod Releases.


That doesn't seem to be true by experience. The Slimes mod was under CC BY-NC-ND, which is not a free license (CC BY-NC-ND doesn't allow commercial use and doesn't allow modifications), and it was moved to Mod Releases. An oversight?
Last edited by onpon4 on Tue May 28, 2013 13:09, edited 1 time in total.
 

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by PilzAdam » Tue May 28, 2013 14:37

onpon4 wrote:
PilzAdam wrote:Note that this forum does not support non free mods, i.e. they will not be moved to Mod Releases.


That doesn't seem to be true by experience. The Slimes mod was under CC BY-NC-ND, which is not a free license (CC BY-NC-ND doesn't allow commercial use and doesn't allow modifications), and it was moved to Mod Releases. An oversight?

Well, at least thats what celeron55 said. Maybe there are some moderators here who dont know.
 

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by mauvebic » Tue May 28, 2013 15:57

Let's see, you try to coerce people into opensource by influencing (limiting) their choice of licenses, and you're surprised they have no respect for those licenses? One wonders if those licenses are even applicable since the person was under duress to chose the "right" one.

As for putting them back up, just because stuff was once under an open source license, doesn't mean you can ignore subsequent license changes if they aren't to your liking. Its a slippery slope when you start choosing which licenses you'll respect, knowing that it works both ways, this community has a lot more to lose than to gain by setting the precedent.
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by PilzAdam » Tue May 28, 2013 16:04

mauvebic wrote:Let's see, you try to coerce people into opensource by influencing (limiting) their choice of licenses, and you're surprised they have no respect for those licenses? One wonders if those licenses are even applicable since the person was under duress to chose the "right" one.

As for putting them back up, just because stuff was once under an open source license, doesn't mean you can ignore subsequent license changes if they aren't to your liking. Its a slippery slope when you start choosing which licenses you'll respect, knowing that it works both ways, this community has a lot more to lose than to gain by setting the precedent.

This is an open source community, thus it respects and only allows free licenses. If people feel like releasing their work under a not free license then they are wrong here.
But first releasing it as free and then try to get it back and make it unfree is even more wrong.
Last edited by PilzAdam on Tue May 28, 2013 16:04, edited 1 time in total.
 

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by Casimir » Tue May 28, 2013 16:29

Real freedom is when you can choose not to be free. Everything else is just another ideology telling people what is "best" for them.
 

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