hmmmm wrote:What's going on with this constant commotion about people "leaving"?
Minetest is a game, not some sort of club. If you like playing the game, then just play it. If you're not in the mood to play it, you certainly don't have to.
There is no need for these sorts of theatrics.
tinoesroho wrote:Now look: we're a bloody [fully configurable freaking game] and engine. Anything can be changed. DO IT TO IT!
hdastwb wrote:
Besides basic civility, it seems to me that the main problem here is communication. prestidigitator, in one of the clearest examples of abuse by the devs, had believed that he had their support in the large amount of effort that he put into making a more flexible model for noise generation, only to get not only his code but also his coding style brutally rejected when it came time to pull-request them. At the very least, the devs should either make it clearer that they don't intend to accept code from outsiders or they should decide to actually open the development of the engine more to the community. Urging people to get involved and then shunning them is not the way to go..
OryHara wrote:disinformation, mese is the only thing minecraft doesnt have, lol.
as for the mudducks sayin fork it, just because this is opensource doesnt give anyone
the ok to tell their userbase fuck you, make it yourself. i say shame on this mess, the
new leaders of MT and the sheeple who blindly follow are no better then the corparate empire's
that lead the world as we know it.
i say shame on this community's entire mess, minetest has failed.
hdastwb wrote:Besides basic civility, it seems to me that the main problem here is communication. prestidigitator, in one of the clearest examples of abuse by the devs, had believed that he had their support in the large amount of effort that he put into making a more flexible model for noise generation, only to get not only his code but also his coding style brutally rejected when it came time to pull-request them. At the very least, the devs should either make it clearer that they don't intend to accept code from outsiders or they should decide to actually open the development of the engine more to the community. Urging people to get involved and then shunning them is not the way to go.
qznc wrote:Coding style is important and a reasonable argument to reject a pull request. The contributor should fix his code and request again. Of course, the core devs could always be friendlier to newcomers and help them fix their code, but the core devs are not obliged to do so.
hdastwb wrote:qznc wrote:Coding style is important and a reasonable argument to reject a pull request. The contributor should fix his code and request again. Of course, the core devs could always be friendlier to newcomers and help them fix their code, but the core devs are not obliged to do so.
I'm sorry for using such a vague term; what I meant was not really the formatting of the code but rather the structure of the code itself. In this instance, object orientation was used to provide the extensibility and modularity inherent to his design of the noise generation algorithms.
hdastwb wrote:I believe that I've seen several attempts to fork or at least provide a more open, experimental version of the game. The devs are against it, as they feel that forking would fracture the Minetest base too much and spell doom for the game. Some of the attempts at providing an alternate code base are here: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5698 or here: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5683, but it seems like many of the people behind the effort have, in fact, left.
hdastwb wrote:Personally, I really like the concept of the Minetest game and I don't plan on leaving the community. I've just given up on trying to help with development. Many of the ideas that I have really don't fit in Minetest anyway, so if I do implement a voxel game, it will likely be written from scratch and have next to nothing in common with Minetest.
hdastwb wrote:I'm sorry for using such a vague term; what I meant was not really the formatting of the code but rather the structure of the code itself. In this instance, object orientation was used to provide the extensibility and modularity inherent to his design of the noise generation algorithms. Because the way in which the changes were written were an inherent part of the changes themselves, he couldn't really just remove the objects from them. The devs, seeing the abuse that objects tend to receive when implemented in "proper" object-oriented languages, felt that even using them responsibly as prestidigitator did would spiral into the rampant inefficiencies and code bloat that inevitably follow "true" object-oriented designs. However, I don't believe they ever stated it that way when they dismissed them…
I believe that I've seen several attempts to fork or at least provide a more open, experimental version of the game. The devs are against it, as they feel that forking would fracture the Minetest base too much and spell doom for the game. Some of the attempts at providing an alternate code base are here: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5698 or here: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5683, but it seems like many of the people behind the effort have, in fact, left.
Personally, I really like the concept of the Minetest game and I don't plan on leaving the community. I've just given up on trying to help with development. Many of the ideas that I have really don't fit in Minetest anyway, so if I do implement a voxel game, it will likely be written from scratch and have next to nothing in common with Minetest.
shaneroach wrote:The devs working on THIS version likely are already working on what they want to work on. Therefore, they do not want to spend their time working on someone else's vision. That's all.
hdastwb wrote:tinoesroho wrote:Now look: we're a bloody [fully configurable freaking game] and engine. Anything can be changed. DO IT TO IT!
English doesn't really have grouping markers, though I think they are really needed in this instance. The game itself is fully configurable and exposes most of the server functionality via a well-made Lua interface.
However, the engine is an entirely different story; we only have one engine and any change to said engine must go through the core devs, who seem to have lately taken to outright rejecting outside code and doing it in such a rude manner as to bring many people who have wanted to contribute to anger. The engine seems to be more or less the sole property of the core devs, thus, if you are playing on the Minetest engine, in a way you are forced to play Pilz's version of minetest.
As controversial as PilzAdam's Minecraftization changes have been (and as stupid and useless as Obsidian is in this game), I think the main tide of people leaving has been (or at least originally was) due to engine development clashes and not things that one can mod out in Lua.
Besides basic civility, it seems to me that the main problem here is communication. prestidigitator, in one of the clearest examples of abuse by the devs, had believed that he had their support in the large amount of effort that he put into making a more flexible model for noise generation, only to get not only his code but also his coding style brutally rejected when it came time to pull-request them. At the very least, the devs should either make it clearer that they don't intend to accept code from outsiders or they should decide to actually open the development of the engine more to the community. Urging people to get involved and then shunning them is not the way to go.
Honestly, though, I've been out of the fray for a while, so feel free to correct me if the situation has changed significantly in my absence.
Re:All projects need your help. (Score:5, Insightful)
by jellomizer (103300) on Monday May 20, 2013 @09:36AM (#43772899)
The problem with Open Source Software is the intense focus on the freaking source code. But for most software projects Coding source code is only 40% of the work. There is a lot of work going in Architecting, Designing, Documentation, that goes on as well. For most project they have the Coder do all the work, that is why they write a few dozen lines of code a day because they are busy doing the other stuff.
It's my party and no one else is invited (Score:5, Interesting)
by TWiTfan (2887093) on Monday May 20, 2013 @09:11AM (#43772757)
the Linux Kernel development team in particular is known for its savagery
I've found that the "It's my party and no one else is invited" syndrome permeates all too many OSS projects. Finally stopped offering to help after encountering one too many projects that act like the snobby fraternity from a bad 80's movie. Now I do my own stuff and forgo the projects that have already started.
Re:It's my party and no one else is invited (Score:4, Insightful)
by FatLittleMonkey (1341387) on Monday May 20, 2013 @03:46PM (#43775961)
I've read your comments in this thread and it is obvious that you are precisely the person everyone who has had difficulties with OSS projects is complaining about.
You've got a bunch of people who've had negative experiences and instead of listening to their experiences, instead of asking questions or adding thoughts that create an interesting and informative thread, your only interest is in proving that they are wrong. You twist their words, you pick and snipe, you grind them down until you drive them out of the thread and you "win"!
And that is a perfect example of what people face when dealing with... well, you, in OSS projects. I'd be willing to bet good money that you do exactly the same thing in help or dev forums for projects you think you're assisting. Grinding people down until they give up and leave. You do vastly more harm than good, as you have done in this very thread. I suspect it takes a dozen good contributors to make up for every one of... you. So in effect, you are not only harming newcomers, but you are cancelling out the work of many other existing contributors. Even worse if it creates a culture that encourages the same behaviour in others because of the habits they learn when trying to deal with people like you; until they become people like you. An anti-social virus.
While I know you can't read this comment (I mean actually "read" it, I'm sure you'll see some keywords to pick apart), I don't really write it for you. I'm hoping that it helps others who might recognise your behaviour in themselves and others, help them understand why what you do is so destructive. And perhaps create just a little social pressure in the other direction.
Re:It's my party and no one else is invited (Score:4, Insightful)
by BasilBrush (643681) on Monday May 20, 2013 @09:31AM (#43772857)
Better still, use your programming talents to get a programming job you enjoy. Not only will they treat you more politely than an OSS project, they'll pay you.
mauvebic wrote:Now the focus seems to strictly be emulating minecraft
PilzAdam wrote:Note that this forum does not support non free mods, i.e. they will not be moved to Mod Releases.
onpon4 wrote:PilzAdam wrote:Note that this forum does not support non free mods, i.e. they will not be moved to Mod Releases.
That doesn't seem to be true by experience. The Slimes mod was under CC BY-NC-ND, which is not a free license (CC BY-NC-ND doesn't allow commercial use and doesn't allow modifications), and it was moved to Mod Releases. An oversight?
mauvebic wrote:Let's see, you try to coerce people into opensource by influencing (limiting) their choice of licenses, and you're surprised they have no respect for those licenses? One wonders if those licenses are even applicable since the person was under duress to chose the "right" one.
As for putting them back up, just because stuff was once under an open source license, doesn't mean you can ignore subsequent license changes if they aren't to your liking. Its a slippery slope when you start choosing which licenses you'll respect, knowing that it works both ways, this community has a lot more to lose than to gain by setting the precedent.
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