On Minetest terminology: “block” and “node”

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On Minetest terminology: “block” and “node”

by Wuzzy » Fri Oct 18, 2013 06:11

There are some terms in Minetest which are a bit confusing because they are either ambigious or used inconsequently throughout the wikis, the forums and Minetest itself. This thread is part of a series of threads; I used multiple threads in order to cast multiple polls.

“block” and “node”
Confusion with “blocks” and “nodes”. Seriously, this is starting to get annoying. These dev wiki uses “block”/“mapblock” for 16×16×16 nodes and “node” for a single “cube-thingie”. A node can be Sand but also be a torch etc. (IIRC).

The community wiki calls “nodes” often “blocks”. In minetest_game, some node names have “block” in it, for example “Steel Block”, “Bronze Block”, “Grass Block” etc.
I think the terminology should be consistent throughout the wikis and the game.

I make following suggestions:
  • Keep the meaning of “node” and “block” in the sense of the developer wiki
  • Stop using the term “block” in any different sense
  • Introduce the term “cube” which means a node which has the shape of a cube of side length 1, for example Steel Block, Dirt, Gravel, Water Source etc. but not Torch, Flowing Water, Door, Wooden Stair, Wooden Slab. Consequently in minetest_game (and maybe other subgames/games, too), rename all nodes which are cubes and have “Block” in their names, so “Steel Block” shall become “Steel Cube”, etc. This change resolves the nameclash between “block” (in the sense of “cube-shaped node”) and “block” (in the sense of “16×16×16 nodes”).

Please use the poll, which runs for 31 days, to express your level of agreement with these suggestions. If you choose to answer “Partly.”, please write what parts of the suggestion you don’t like.
Last edited by Wuzzy on Sat Oct 19, 2013 02:18, edited 1 time in total.
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by Dan Duncombe » Fri Oct 18, 2013 06:38

The problem is, calling it steel block really means block of steel- block is not a 100% minecraft term. Also, calling it a steel node could mean anything, it could be a steel torch for all I know. Although I do always try to call things nodes unless they are blocks of something.
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by Wuzzy » Fri Oct 18, 2013 06:43

This was a strawman argument (perhaps unintentionally). I did not suggest to rename “Steel Block” to “Steel Node”. I suggested to rename “Steel Block” to “Steel Cube”.
You don’t seem to have fully read my post. Read it again.
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by BlockMen » Fri Oct 18, 2013 06:45

 

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by Wuzzy » Fri Oct 18, 2013 07:01

BlockMen: Your thread does not address the suggestions I made direclty. So: What do you think about the suggestions in this thread, especially the suggested term “cube”?
In case you wanted to imply that creating a new thread was unneccesary: Your thread had logically no poll on this, so I thought creating a new thread was appropriate.
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by Wuzzy » Fri Oct 18, 2013 07:36

Okay, it seems the suggestions have caused some confusion.

In brief: All cubes (this according to the suggestion) are also nodes, but not all nodes are cubes. What I call “cube” is probably the same what BlockMen wants to be called “block”. Also, “cube” refers to the shape. So slabs and stairs are not cubes by definition, they are, well, slabs and stairs ;-). Slabs, stairs, cubes, (placed) fenceposts, (placed) flowers, etc. are all members of the superset “nodes”.

Here’s my long clarification for “nodes”: “node” should be a catch-all term for anything which can be registered by minetest.register_node(). Air is included. This is basicly what I meant with “keep the current meaning”, because that’s what it is already meaning. Of course such cube-shabed things like Sand are nodes but they are also cubes (according to the suggested terminology) or blocks (according to your suggested terminology). But also a fencepost would be a node. It would be strange to call a fencepost a “block” or even “cube” as well. I don’t think you, BlockMen, intended that. With your “block” terminology and your proposed elimination of the term “node” (even if in the wikis), there would be no general term for placed things like fenceposts, torches, plants, flowers, etc. anymore. The players still won’t have to use the term “node” actually, because it is very general. It may be more intuitive to use more special terms, like my proposed “cube”. I would be fine with “block” if it weren’t already occupied by developers. But because I want to crush a name clash, I propose “cube”.

I hope this clears some things up a bit. :-)
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by celeron55 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 09:32

One alternative is to rename the MapBlocks of the engine to something else. I browsed a thesaurus for the first time on this issue and came up with one, and only one word, that would be acceptable: Segment.

That word is descriptive, doesn't sound bad, isn't used anywhere yet (unlike chunk, which in Minetest means a collection of MapBlocks) and doesn't have a particular meaning in this genre of things otherwise either.
 

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by Casimir » Fri Oct 18, 2013 09:55

celeron55 wrote:Segment

Very good.
 

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by rubenwardy » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:09

Map block != Block

+1 for segment
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by Wuzzy » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:08

Okay, if you have a different suggestion, create your own poll and see which one wins. ;-)


PS:
rubenwardy wrote:Map block != Block

According to http://dev.minetest.net/Terminology, “Block” is a synonym for “MapBlock”.
A Minetest developer wiki editor wrote:Blocks or Mapblocks are 16×16×16 groups of nodes.
Last edited by Wuzzy on Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:15, edited 1 time in total.
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by rubenwardy » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:11

I wrote that article.

"Blocks" can be used to describe both MapBlocks and Nodes.

For developers, Blocks is Mapblocks.
For players, Blocks are Nodes.

It is quite stupid, so yeah it should be changed.
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by BlockMen » Fri Oct 18, 2013 13:36

IMO block should be used for full cube nodes


And for developers: don't be that lazy and call you MapBlock exactly that, 3 letters more shouldnt be that hard

@wuzzy: i posted that topic to give everyone the chance to read the last discussion about that and to show my opinon on that ;)
 

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by Krock » Fri Oct 18, 2013 19:45

Uhm I don't really care about those words, sometimes i call them blocks, sometimes nodes.

Items: everything which I can't put on the ground
Nodes: everything I can put on the ground
Blocks: items crafted together (ex. Steel Block)
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by Wuzzy » Fri Oct 18, 2013 21:44

Krock, I don’t believe you don’t care about these words. Because if it were true, you also would not have bothered writing your own definition of these words. I conclude you do indeed care about these words.

Your definition of “block” is bad. Look here, all these things are crafted together solely out of things which can’t be put on the ground:
  • Mese Pickaxe (Mese Crystals and Sticks)
  • Steel Shovel (Steel Ingot and Sticks)
  • Flour (Wheat)
  • Torch (Stick and Coal Lump)
I would never call Flour a “block”. In fact, my common sense says that a Flour is pretty much a prototype of what is not a block.

These things are, according to your definition, not blocks, because they can’t be crafted together:
  • Dirt
  • Gravel
  • Sand
  • Water Source
Last edited by Wuzzy on Fri Oct 18, 2013 21:45, edited 1 time in total.
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by roku » Fri Oct 18, 2013 23:30

So what is a block, specifically? I read what PilzAdam said in the first thread about this but couldn't figure out what he meant. I've picked up the terminology "node" from playing myself, or maybe reading it used elsewhere, and never really thought much about it. Are all items nodes, basically, and blocks are just regular cubic nodes? I'm asking about the in-game usage and also about "mapblocks", just out of curiosity. From what PilzAdam said originally, it seems that devs typically use the player terminology and make an extra distinction for "block" as used in the code by using the term mapblock. Ie, someone was lazy and didn't want to reference `mapblock` over and over so they shortened it to `block` in the code.
 

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by Menche » Sat Oct 19, 2013 00:29

I agree that having the word "block" in node descriptions can be confusing. I think the best solution would be to just change that to "cube".

A "block" is and always has been a 16x16 area of nodes.
A "node" is anything that has a fixed place in the world.
An "entity" is any item that doesn't have a fixed place.

You could call any "node" that uses the default drawtype a "cube".
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by PilzAdam » Sat Oct 19, 2013 13:19

Whats wrong with the term being used differently in the user- and dev wiki?
 

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by xyz » Sat Oct 19, 2013 15:07

PilzAdam wrote:Whats wrong with the term being used differently in the user- and dev wiki?


There are some terms in Minetest which are a bit confusing because they are either ambigious or used inconsequently throughout the wikis, the forums and Minetest itself. This thread is part of a series of threads; I used multiple threads in order to cast multiple polls.
 

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by jojoa1997 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 00:55

my view on this is that wuzzy is asking everyone to change all tneir recipes and adms and nodes that use the word block. i am sorry but i don't see any use to this change.
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by Menche » Sun Oct 20, 2013 03:44

jojoa1997 wrote:my view on this is that wuzzy is asking everyone to change all tneir recipes and adms and nodes that use the word block. i am sorry but i don't see any use to this change.

It's just a few description fields, and it will be more consistent.

ps. i typed this with the 3ds. so cool.

Sorry, don't care.
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by Casimir » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:37

celeron55 wrote:Segment.

End of discussion.

Node = that thing that you define with register_node
Voxel = "the three-dimensional analogue of a pixel" [1]
Segment = new word for the confusing Mapblock
Block = "A substantial, often approximately cuboid, piece of any substance." [2]
 

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by Wuzzy » Sun Oct 20, 2013 14:32

I think I have to repeat myself: If you have different suggestions and think they are better than mine: Just open your own thread with a poll and see how well they got accepted.
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by Tarlung » Fri Oct 25, 2013 03:31

Wuzzy wrote:This was a strawman argument (perhaps unintentionally). I did not suggest to rename “Steel Block” to “Steel Node”. I suggested to rename “Steel Block” to “Steel Cube”.
You don’t seem to have fully read my post. Read it again.



the definiton of block seems to be from a masonary POV. minetest is a sort of construction based game/engine, so block is a reasonable noun.

Although in the same way cube is also appropiate as a cube defined in geometry is: a solid bound by six planes/faces.

http://www.dictionary.reference.com/browse/cube?s=ts

I personaly would like to see cube used because, in part, it has root origin in math/Greek. Mathmatics is a highly formal language and so much more consice.

As for node I have no idea, node is a new word to me being a non-programer. Reading for context, is a node a symonym for a point placed on a plane or face of a cube?

I hope i didn't misunderstand your origainal post and thus reply off topic
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by Wuzzy » Fri Oct 25, 2013 06:37

the definiton of block seems to be from a masonary POV. minetest is a sort of construction based game/engine, so block is a reasonable noun.

Understanding Minetest as an engine, this becomes an argument against “block”. Because theoretically, you can create a subgame (full standalone collection of mods) where you are can’t mine and build at all. This could make sense for action-based subgames which are combat-focused and for puzzle-based subgames where you push buttons, activate things and other things which are not building and mining.

Oh, by the way, I fully agree with the proposal of “segment”. It does not conflict with my proposal.

Although in the same way cube is also appropiate as a cube defined in geometry is: a solid bound by six planes/faces.

Also, the faces have to be equal in size and they have to be squares. This is how cubes differ from blocks. A block is also a rectangular 3-dimensional shape, but the faces do not neccessarily have to be of the same size. Therefore, all cubes are blocks but not all blocks are cubes.
Examples for cubes in the vanilla Minetest game:
  • Dirt
  • Sand
  • Nyan Cat
  • Stone
  • Glass
Examples for non-cubes:
  • Wooden Stair
  • Wooden Slab
  • Fence
  • Torch
  • Wooden door
  • Sign

Reading for context, is a node a symonym for a point placed on a plane or face of a cube?

Neither. In Minetest, a node is not a point.

I understand “node” as a generalization of everything which you can build and can occupy space in the map: Cubes, torches, etc. A node is the smallest unit you can have in the map and it has a size of 1×1×1. Therefore, all cubes would automatically be nodes. But also fenceposts, torches, cottons etc would be nodes. I would never call a fence post a “cube” because of the shape.
Examples for nodes:
  • Dirt
  • Sand
  • Wooden Stair
  • Cobble Slab
  • Fence post
  • placed Torch
  • Air
  • Nyan Cat
  • Mese Block
  • placed Sign
  • placed Ladder
  • placed Sapling
  • Water Source
  • Flowing Water
  • the lower half of a Wooden Door
  • the upper half of a Wooden Door

Examples for non-nodes:
  • String
  • Stick
  • Paper
  • Book
  • Wooden Door

With only “block”, you wouldn’t have a general term which really fits to torches, fenceposts, etc. I don’t like them being called “block”. Certainly I don’t like Stairs and Slabs called “Block”. Just call them stairs and slabs. :D

Note that doors are somewhat a special case. “Cube” would be wrong because of the shape. “Node” would be wrong because it occupies a space of 1×2×1, therefore, it consists of two nodes. I would call doors just “doors”. :D
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by Tarlung » Sat Oct 26, 2013 05:12

Wuzzy wrote:



okay thanks for clarifying node for me, i must of gotten confused because, while playing the space in which the player interacts with seems to be at first glance x,y,z coordinateds. so i thought a node might be a point on a graph.

now thinking about it that doesn't really fit because, in graphing coordinates, multiple points can share coordinates. i don't think two nodes can occupy the same exact space? as for the original argument, i agree with you.

wish i could change my poll vote from partly (from when i only understood the absolute basic concept of your question.) to yes now that you have better educated me on the differances

i suppose you could subtract one from partly and add it to yes :) after the final tally of course, so as to not confuse yourself.

edit: now i'm confused as i thought the minetest engine was called The Irrlicht Engine. and minetest mod or no mod was the name of the game/project that the development selected to identify the work they did, separate form the Irrlicht Engine.
Last edited by Tarlung on Sat Oct 26, 2013 06:01, edited 1 time in total.
 

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by Wuzzy » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:47

Just to remind you: The poll ends in 6 days.
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by Wuzzy » Tue Nov 19, 2013 17:51

The poll is over!

Results:

(6) Yes.
(5) Partly.
(9) No.
(4) I don’t care.
24 people voted.

When I pretend Tarlung had voted for “Yes.” instead of “Partly.”, the result becomes:

(7) Yes.
(4) Partly.
(9) No.
(4) I don’t care.

In both cases, “No.” has the majority. So this vote is a clear “No.” and essentially failed. I will not change the wiki as a result.
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