Advantages and Disadvantages of merging Mesecons

[rubenwardy]

I would like to have a(n intelligent) debate on the advantages and disadvantage of merging mesecons into minetest_game. Please supply your own arguments and counter any existing arguments.

I suggest Mesecons should be merged in a simpler state, with digilines, command blocks and lua chips (and other non-essential stuff) as separate mods.

Advantages

• Mesecons would become one of the features of minetest_game. It would give more meaning to the "test" part of the name, along with other scientific mods.
• Mesecons may get more development and bug fixes if added.

Disadvantages

• Lag on server. (counter: server owners can just remove it. We shouldn't restrict features because of this, providing that server owners can just delete, rather than searching around default/init.lua or something. minetest_game should be aimed at singleplayer and LAN. Also, it only lags when used.)
• Increased download. (counter: A simplified version of Mesecons is only 330KB. Minetest is currently 22MB. Remember that these are sometimes compressed when downloaded)
• But they can just download it as a mod! (counter: It wouldn't be a feature of Minetest, it is just an additional mod. New players would quite immediately after seeing that there is no 'redstone' type things in the game.)

[Zeno]

(counter: server owners can just remove it. We shouldn't restrict features because of this, providing that server owners can just delete, rather than searching around default/init.lua or something.

I disagree with that. Using git to keep up with things that others are doing and "just delete the stuff you don't want" isn't always a great way of doing things. It turns a simple git pull into several commands. I wish I had a better idea but I don't.

[TenPlus1]

-1... Mesecons takes minutes to install and activate and is a per-user option so shouldn't be included in the default game...

[Topywo]

@rubenwardy
Mesecons (and technic/pipeworks) are great mods that bring lots of fun for players to minetest. But also there are often bug(fixes)needed and they can be fairly complicated.

Maybe a (new?) simple mod (for the minetest_game) containing one type of powerline, one on/off switch and one powergenerator would be sufficient (to start with)?

[jp]

I'm completely in disagreement with this idea.

According to my long-term observations, the main reason is that Mesecons is rarely used by common people, but always by a minority of players. And even among this minority, Mesecons is operated only quite briefly.

Aside that, it's rather heavy, complex (always potentially buggy and not easy to fix) and can be used for add some infinite loops that would effectively shutdown and slow down the servers.

[Evergreen]

I think it would only add to the 'test' aspect if it worked more like real electronics. Switches that provide their own power? Seriously? Also, even if it were more like real electronics, I think it would be too heavy for minetest_game. (unless some more efficient way of doing abm-like things is introduced)

[Zeno]

Aside that, it's rather heavy, complex (always potentially buggy and not easy to fix) and can be used for add some infinite loops that would effectively shutdown and slow down the servers.

Hey, we agree! I like mesecons in singleplayer games, but on a server (where CPU usage is always pretty high even without mesecons) I can't say it's very attractive having it bundled with default.

[4aiman]

- I'm agree with Topywo, a new simplified mod should do it. A new mod can even implement a signal power (if there's someone who wants it).

+ But I can't agree that trimmed mesecons are so fat:
In Magichet I have mesecons, alias, blinkyplant, button, compatibility, delayer, hydroturbine, lamp, lightstone, materaials, mvps, noteblock, pistons, pressureplates, random, receiver, solarpanel, switch, torch, wallever.
Plenty of mesecons, huh?
And all that stuff is of only 393,9 kBytes in size. Compress that now.

+ there should be some wiring. Because of Minecraft has it. It was a great problem for me to realize there won't be any when I came to MT. Later Mesecons appeared but were too buggy. Nowadays they're more or less stable. Not less stable than any other released mod, in fact.

~People are eager to ADD a lot of mods but for some reason can't deal with the necessity of DELETION of a SINGLE folder. My point: someone's troubles with his\her custom setup shouldn't be Minetest's problem. If someone doesn't like the defaults, he\she changes those. Does anyone really think that it is normal to complain, that MODDER's decision to alter the game MAKES him to ACTUALLY alter it while he\she was against it? %_%
Did they behave in the same manner when the "bones" mod had been added? E.g. asking to remove a new feature because they don't want to do it themselves.
MT just CAN'T satisfy everyone. That's why there's such a diversity of games :)

+MT is too dark at nights. Some artificial light controlled by switches can't be too bad.

Actually.. The power of a signal can help to reduce the maximum length of a wiring. Repeaters will require more resources. The more it costs to build one - the slower be the increase rate of the lag caused by set_node(). Without any repeaters there're won't be too much lag.

+ C'mon, MOBS are much more CPU-eating feature. Yet everyone blame mesecons. :(
And even my acer aspire one have no troubles with them. Do I need to list exact properties?

[rubenwardy]

I agree that Mesecons is too bulky to be included in minetest_game.

4aiman's list of features is good. Most of the weight is from the note block, which plays music.

[Esteban]

.

[Zeno]

And all that stuff is of only 393,9 kBytes in size. Compress that now.

Size has nothing to do with it. It's the increase in CPU load that is important.

~People are eager to ADD a lot of mods but for some reason can't deal with the necessity of DELETION of a SINGLE folder.

It is much, much, much easier to add a mod than delete a directory when you're using git to keep up with updates.

And even my acer aspire one have no troubles with them. Do I need to list exact properties?

You run a server on your Acer Aspire One?

[Krock]

The default game should be simple and not add heavy mods.
And if the players want that mod, they can get it seperately.

[rubenwardy]

You could also use settings instead of deleting a folder.

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

Code: Select all

cd game/minetest_game
git stash save --keep-index
git pull origin master
git rm mods/mesecons/* -r
cd ../../


[rubenwardy]

Mesecons doesn't have to be a heavy mod. This same mentality to refusing features was used with farming.

[Vazon]

At the moment with all that Minetest is, I think adding any form of Mesecons OR any other big of change to the game would not be one of the greatest changes we have made to the game. Furthermore, the game its self just needs to stop having new features added it and fix what is already currently in the game. Current versions of Minetest cant even run on the most descent computers, I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2014 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous ( Heck, I can play MineCraft better than I can play Minetest on this computer ). So until Minetest is fast enough to run decently on even the most basic computers I think new features added to the game should be limited this includeds mods like Mesecons. And another thing, I don't think Minetest using a rendering engine is not smart and is not helping speed at all. Why are we not using a gaming engine, Just WHY!?!?!?

Thus, on this topic -5 for Mesecons being added for now.

Sorry if this seems a little bit off topic, but this topic seems like the best place to address this. Also sorry if my grammar isn't the best.

[Krock]

I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2015 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous ( Heck, I can play MineCraft better than I can play Minetest on this computer ).

Update your drivers. I'm able to play this on a PC with a worth less than $50..

[Vazon]

I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2015 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous ( Heck, I can play MineCraft better than I can play Minetest on this computer ).

Update your drivers. I'm able to play this on a PC with a worth less than $50..

My drivers are up to date. Minetest just is not the greatest atm.

[Evergreen]

At the moment with all that Minetest is, I think adding any form of Mesecons OR any other big of change to the game would not be one of the greatest changes we have made to the game. Furthermore, the game its self just needs to stop having new features added it and fix what is already currently in the game. Current versions of Minetest cant even run on the most descent computers, I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2014 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous ( Heck, I can play MineCraft better than I can play Minetest on this computer ). So until Minetest is fast enough to run decently on even the most basic computers I think new features added to the game should be limited this includeds mods like Mesecons. And another thing, I don't think Minetest using a rendering engine is not smart and is not helping speed at all. Why are we not using a gaming engine, Just WHY!?!?!?

Thus, on this topic -5 for Mesecons being added for now.

Sorry if this seems a little bit off topic, but this topic seems like the best place to address this. Also sorry if my grammar isn't the best.

Eh, what kind of hardware was in this computer? I have a fairly decent ~450 USD computer that runs minetest wonderfully (60fps) with all the shaders turned on.

[rubenwardy]

I am against merging Mesecons in its fall form. However, a simple version I would like.

I have changed my mind about this now, I think. The main reason for this is that it could be sold as feature of minetest. But we can still do this with: "Use Mesecons to create electrical circuits and contraptions"

Btw, Vazon:
Irrlicht is a 3D rendering engine.
Minetest is a game engine.
Minetest is a game.

Full game engines are usually quite bloated, and aimed for FPSes

[Vazon]

Evergreen: it shouldn't matter, Minetest should be able to run on just about any newer computer with out having to make modifications or any extra cost. If people cant play with what they have, they are more likely just to say heck with this game and move on. Am I not correct?? Would you continue to play a game that you cant play efficiently with out buy or modifying you system???

[rubenwardy]

Knowing your hardware may allow us to see where the problem is.

[Vazon]

rubenwardy: The point is that we are still using a rendering engine, I'm sure there is a better solution to this. Plus if Minetest is a game engine, it doesn't seem to run all that well on most computers with out people having to add stuff or change what they have.

[Vazon]

Knowing your hardware may allow us to see where the problem is.

There isn't a problem, I can run other games just fine like red eclipse. This what I'm trying to address, people should not have to change anything just to play a game.

[Calinou]

At the moment with all that Minetest is, I think adding any form of Mesecons OR any other big of change to the game would not be one of the greatest changes we have made to the game. Furthermore, the game its self just needs to stop having new features added it and fix what is already currently in the game. Current versions of Minetest cant even run on the most descent computers, I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2014 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous ( Heck, I can play MineCraft better than I can play Minetest on this computer ). So until Minetest is fast enough to run decently on even the most basic computers I think new features added to the game should be limited this includeds mods like Mesecons. And another thing, I don't think Minetest using a rendering engine is not smart and is not helping speed at all. Why are we not using a gaming engine, Just WHY!?!?!?

Thus, on this topic -5 for Mesecons being added for now.

Sorry if this seems a little bit off topic, but this topic seems like the best place to address this. Also sorry if my grammar isn't the best.

There are currently known performance problems with 0.4.10 and Git versions of Minetest on Windows, which seem to happen on all builds, official and unofficial, 32 bits and 64 bits.

Irrlicht is a lightweight graphics engine – which is fine for games (which can be better than a big thing like OGRE). Using a dedicated gaming engine is not necessarily faster.

Minecraft isn't that slow these days (1.8, as far as I know, strongly improved rendering performance), it isn't uncommon to see people with more FPS in Minecraft than in Minetest. Lastly, you don't need a $ 2000 computer at all unless it is part of your work (eg. you're doing GPU computing).

On topic, I'm against merging Mesecons because most people don't use it. The upside, compared to inclusion of mobs, is that players on servers have the choice – if Mesecons is installed, you can choose not to use it, but you often can't choose to avoid mobs on servers.

[greydmiyu]

Current versions of Minetest cant even run on the most descent computers, I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2014 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous.

Then the problem is with your computer. I know you've replied below stating it isn't, but it is. I can prove it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7THWkIhC8c

That is me with Minetest + Carbone + a few other mods I picked up. That's Minetest + DXTory recording on a machine I built back in June for ~$700. It's core components are an AMD FX-8320 and GTX760; hardly top of the line gear. If I can play and record Minetest on that machine then you should be able to just play it unless you have something wonky with your setup.

Heck, I fart around in Minetest + Carbone on my <$300 laptop which can't run Minecraft at above "slideshow" FPS.
It pulls an easy 30fps. That's on a Intel N2830 with integrated graphics.

I'm not saying that Minetest doesn't need work. But what we don't need is people engaging in extreme hyperbole on what is needed just to run the thing.

[Jordach]

I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2014 )

Bought AlienWare or a prebuild by chance?

It's basically a Mac Pro with an Alien logo -- which means, underpowered everything and just looks shiny.

Next time, try building it yourself; and use this guide here for pricing and stuff.

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/w ... en_crusher

[Zeno]

I'm not saying that Minetest doesn't need work. But what we don't need is people engaging in extreme hyperbole on what is needed just to run the thing.

A singleplayer game with an essentially empty world. Yes that will be fine.

Try running a server and you'll start to run into walls pretty quickly. The main bottleneck is the lighting (amongst other things including over-rendering)

And FWIW I often get below 20fps on:

model name : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770K CPU @ 3.50GHz
00:01.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation Xeon E3-1200 v3/4th Gen Core Processor PCI Express x16 Controller (rev 06)
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: NVIDIA Corporation GK104 [GeForce GTX 680] (rev a1)
RAM: 16GB

The above is kind of irrelevent though. What matters, really, is server specs. With 6 cores of a Xeon, 15-20 players, the CPU sits at 100% just about the entire time. Adding something like mesecons that will increase CPU load and be used by (probably) just a few players? No thanks. That is not hyperbole.

[Sol]

With 6 cores of a Xeon, 15-20 players, the CPU sits at 100% just about the entire time.

Excuse me, but how did you achieve that? Our server is running on a cheap VPS and it's CPU utilization rarely exceeds 25% independent of player count.

[greydmiyu]

I'm not saying that Minetest doesn't need work. But what we don't need is people engaging in extreme hyperbole on what is needed just to run the thing.

First off, please quote me properly, not misattributing my words to someone else.

A singleplayer game with an essentially empty world. Yes that will be fine.

Second, please don't change the context of the discussion then apply the new context to what I wrote as if that somehow refute what I said. I was addressing a very specific charge from Vazon, specifically (bolded emphasis mine)...

Current versions of Minetest cant even run on the most descent computers, I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2014 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous ( Heck, I can play MineCraft better than I can play Minetest on this computer ).

...that he cannot play stock Minetest on his new machine and that the problem lay with Minetest. Not that he cannot run Minetest with heavier games or loads of mods. Not that he cannot run a 15-20 person Minetest server. That he cannot play singleplayer, stock Minetest, and attributes it to him not having a uber-beefy PC.

My response addresses that and only that erroneous claim by pointing out my moderately specced machine can do it while recording (with a link to the video series for proof) and my severely underpowered laptop can do it, too.

[Zeno]

@greydmiyu

Sorry for the mistake with quoting (it was an honest mistake).

The majority of rendering and lighting in Minetest (currently) is done by the CPU. The GPU is pretty much not utilised at all so I really don't find Vazon's problem particularly surprising. Add to that, hmmm, let's say just 100 mesecon things (in a singleplayer world) and I'm sure you'll experience issues as well.

The point *I* was trying to make is that this is a decision that not only affects singleplayer games but anyone who has a server. The minetest_game as it currently is is *not* fast at all even singleplayer. I am not changing the context of the discussion at all.

@sol
With great skill and patience. Perhaps it's the 12GB database for the world; I don't know.