Hunger

What is hunger for you and should it be added?

Hunger is a core feature, so add it
18
46%
Hunger is a core feature, but don't add it
4
10%
Hunger is not a core feature, so don't add it
8
21%
Hunger is not a core feature, but add it anyway.
5
13%
Something else
4
10%
 
Total votes : 39

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BlockMen
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Hunger

by BlockMen » Wed Nov 25, 2015 15:14

Since there is some discussion going on on github(https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/3388) whether and how
hunger is a core feature and should be added i think the users should be more included.

I added a poll to this topic to get users views on this topic. Following the poll options:

- Hunger is a core feature, so add it
You think that hunger is as important as drowning and health AND you want it go in.

- Hunger is a core feature, but don't add it
You think that hunger is as important as drowning and health but you don't like hunger.

- Hunger is not a core feature, so don't add it
You think that hunger is not as important as drowning and health, so it shouldn't go in.

- Hunger is not a core feature, but add it anyway.
You think that hunger is not as important as drowning and health, but you like it anyway and it should be included.

- Something else
Please explain in a post why none of those categories fits your opinion and explain yours.


PS: Note that the PR on github is in an early state, but hunger will be optional as health.
 

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Re: Hunger

by twoelk » Wed Nov 25, 2015 15:35

Hunger should be a core feature so add all needed hooks to the core
but
do not add hunger per se to the core because
if hunger - why not thirst, fatigue, need to go to the toilet, freezing, suffocating, being ill, dying from radiation and whatever doesn't come to my mind just now.

so if not yet present add a nice table per player where values that change with time/exposure/whatever can be tracked. Something that might be tapped by something like a medical report ;-P
 

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Re: Hunger

by Ferk » Wed Nov 25, 2015 16:29

It's confusing to ask if it's a "core feature". What you mean is if it should be added to the engine.

I think it's a core feature, and I think it should be added, but not to the engine, but to the game. The more logic is done in Lua the more customizable for the mods it will be.

If the features are hardcoded in C++ you would have to fork and recompile the engine if you wanted to change the logic in some different original way for your game.

I actually would also prefer if things like breath and health could follow the same logic.
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Re: Hunger

by rubenwardy » Wed Nov 25, 2015 17:54

This poll is misleading as it sounds like you're talking about adding hunger to minetest_game, but you're adding it to minetest/builtin.

twoelk wrote:So if not yet present add a nice table per player where values that change with time/exposure/whatever can be tracked.


This is a best solution, imo. You can use minetest.do_item_eat to override minetest.item_eat, however there may need to be an easier way for items to specify what value their food actually has, beyond hp.
 

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Re: Hunger

by kaadmy » Wed Nov 25, 2015 18:10

rubenwardy wrote:[...] You can use minetest.do_item_eat to override minetest.item_eat, however there may need to be an easier way for items to specify what value their food actually has, beyond hp.

Here: https://github.com/kaadmy/pixture/blob/ ... t.lua#L135

I think support for all bars should be custom, say, where breath would go down while in group:water, health increases while hunger==20, and hunger decreases based on player movement and time.

Having hunger default is a good idea, but until someone can find a way to make how hunger acts different depending on the subgame, I prefer it in mods,and out of default.
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Re: Hunger

by BlockMen » Wed Nov 25, 2015 18:12

@rubenwardy, wrong. Core is clearly the engine (and builtin), not any subgame. Especially in the context of "same as health and drowning"...
Also i don't contribute to Minetest Game anymore.

Ferk wrote:It's confusing to ask if it's a "core feature". What you mean is if it should be added to the engine.

I think it's a core feature, and I think it should be added, but not to the engine, but to the game. The more logic is done in Lua the more customizable for the mods it will be.

If the features are hardcoded in C++ you would have to fork and recompile the engine if you wanted to change the logic in some different original way for your game.


Core is engine and builtin, the hunger logic is written in Lua and can be overriden and/or disabled completly.

Edit: @kaadamy, as said above, subgames, mods, etc can change the hunger mechanics if wanted.
 

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Re: Hunger

by mahmutelmas06 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 23:19

I think not only hunger but also thirst should be in default game
My Mods:

Beverage
 

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Re: Hunger

by rubenwardy » Wed Nov 25, 2015 23:22

mahmutelmas06 wrote:I think not only hunger but also thirst should be in default game


That's not what's being asked, he's asking whether it should be part of the engine, not if it should be part of default game.
 

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Re: Hunger

by mahmutelmas06 » Thu Nov 26, 2015 01:29

rubenwardy wrote:
mahmutelmas06 wrote:I think not only hunger but also thirst should be in default game


That's not what's being asked, he's asking whether it should be part of the engine, not if it should be part of default game.



I totally think we need hunger mod in game but i (probably most users) dont know what is the advantages and disadvantages to have them in builtin or subgame.
My Mods:

Beverage
 

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Re: Hunger

by rubenwardy » Thu Nov 26, 2015 04:46

That's exactly why this poll is misleading and confusing.
 

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Re: Hunger

by benrob0329 » Thu Nov 26, 2015 06:20

Hunger should be in MT Game, not the engine.
 

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Re: Hunger

by Don » Thu Nov 26, 2015 15:19

I don't care if it is core or game as long as there is a way for mods to override/disable. That way mod/game developers still have control.
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Re: Hunger

by Ben » Thu Nov 26, 2015 21:22

My take on this: I was hesitant to vote "core, do include", because it seems like a slightly arbitrary thing for the engine/core. I would rather see a "general attribute system", like some commenters on the pull request (PilzAdam, I think?) said.

Then again: eating is in the core (on_eat etc.), drowning is in the core or engine, so I'd say hunger should be handled the same. Just allow it to be disabled, overridden or modified (specifically, would need a minetest.conf setting – existing games and servers should not need to hunt down a "disable hunger again" mod).

As for the argument "it can be done by mods" that I read on github: there's a big difference between having several optional and probably conflicting mods for something (heck, I was planning a hunger mod of my own, since I have 90% of it in other mods anyway) and one true original canonical way of doing it. See the cross-dependencies between food and hunger mods, or the current chaos of mob frameworks due to (I think) the lack of "one true canonical mob framework", i.e. a builtin one.

So build it in, I say, the deeper the better. That way, all the mods around hunger have a common ground, which I'm sure will lead to more progress.
 

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Re: Hunger

by Casimir » Thu Nov 26, 2015 21:42

If added to core, any subgame that wants a slightly different behavior will disable it anyway and write a lua mod. One could add all abilities to change values, but not the way it works.

We could instead provide some small core features that make writing hunger mods easier. E.g. a hunger value, a status bar, a callback when hunger changed. Most of it probably in lua, in builtin so it can be overwritten. This then can serve as a common standard for hunger mods. Or to say:
I would rather see a "general attribute system"


OT: Regarding mobs. That's the way I would go about mobs too. Write a pure framework, add missing features (that need to be in core) in core, and use builtin/mobs for standards.

Edit:
For Voxelgarden I already have a hunger mod that is working very nice to me, and I have no intentions to switch to other mechanics. The only thing that PR would help with this mod is, that I might not have to save the hunger status by my own (maybe). At the same time I would have to enforce enable_hunger = true the same way I have all liquids set to not drowning - to enable a different drowning.
 

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Re: Hunger

by kaadmy » Thu Nov 26, 2015 22:40

Ben wrote:[...]
I would rather see a "general attribute system", like some commenters on the pull request (PilzAdam, I think?) said.
[...]

I think that was me :)

I don't like having hunger built-in, it's a too specialized thing that mods should have control over.
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Re: Hunger

by Evergreen » Fri Nov 27, 2015 14:48

I agree with kaadmy here, hunger is a bit too specialized to put in the minetest engine, and is something that not every game creator will want to use. Instead we should focus on giving game creators the tools necessary to create their own hunger system. The same thing could probably be said about drowning as well.
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Re: Hunger

by Diamond knight » Fri Nov 27, 2015 20:25

i think hunger should be added, but as a mod in the default subgame, so it can be easily removable/readdable
I can never get enough MESE!!!!!!!!!

my subgame: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11901
 

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Re: Hunger

by TenPlus1 » Fri Nov 27, 2015 20:33

+1
 

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Re: Hunger

by Sware » Sat Nov 28, 2015 15:42

Diamond knight wrote:i think hunger should be added, but as a mod in the default subgame, so it can be easily removable/readdable


this

when i played without hunger, i feel like in 2010, playing alpha - cute times
 

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Re: Hunger

by BlockMen » Sat Nov 28, 2015 16:06

Sware wrote:
Diamond knight wrote:i think hunger should be added, but as a mod in the default subgame, so it can be easily removable/readdable


this

when i played without hunger, i feel like in 2010, playing alpha - cute times



When added as proposed in the pull request you could achive this even better, by unchecking an checkbox or by adding "enable_hunger = false" to your minetest.conf
 

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Re: Hunger

by Minetestforfun » Sat Nov 28, 2015 21:51

+1
Hunger is a core feature, so add it. (to the engine, yes the engine. We are not stupid Rubenwardy, we know what we said...)
Last edited by Minetestforfun on Sun Nov 29, 2015 18:22, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Re: Hunger

by rubenwardy » Sat Nov 28, 2015 22:01

A core feature doesn't mean it should be in core. In minetest_game, maybe.
 

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Re: Hunger

by Napiophelios » Sat Nov 28, 2015 22:15

+1
Hunger is a core feature, so add it
 

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Re: Hunger

by rubenwardy » Sat Nov 28, 2015 22:28

core refers to minetest/builtin, not minetest_game.
 

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Re: Hunger

by Napiophelios » Sun Nov 29, 2015 00:50

Ruben, I do not find this poll misleading in the slightest bit; others might, but I do not.
Regardless of the particular wording used, I am voting to what is implied.
I think hunger should be in the minetest engine with the ability to disable if need be.
 

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Re: Hunger

by Evergreen » Sun Nov 29, 2015 21:16

@Napiophelios: Hunger is a core part to a minecraft-like game, but what if game makers don't want to make a minecraft-like game? Even if it can be disabled, what is the point in adding something that will only benefit those who want hunger? I think we should focus more on giving modders and game makers the tools to create things like this. Heck, there are already some good hunger mods on the forum.
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Re: Hunger

by Minetestforfun » Sun Nov 29, 2015 22:05

Evergreen wrote:@Napiophelios: Hunger is a core part to a minecraft-like game, but what if game makers don't want to make a minecraft-like game? Even if it can be disabled, what is the point in adding something that will only benefit those who want hunger? I think we should focus more on giving modders and game makers the tools to create things like this. Heck, there are already some good hunger mods on the forum.


1) core features are faster than lua (and the code will be polished/stable/beautiful, i hope :))
2) you can disable it like you said it
3) Many servers (survival) doesn't use hunger/hungry system because it cause many lags (freeze/crash when it's not lag issues)
4) indeed it's useless for building servers, disable it will be of course possible
5) Mine**aft already does it blablabla, yes something is already done is this way, and ? That an ugly way of thinking... think like this is more interresting : "something is already done with proprietary code so,let's code it in a freedom/libre way and enjoy it !" <-- that's a beautiful way of thinking
6) modders can create hungry/hunger mods in lua, but refer you to point 1
7) Yes, there are already good hungry mod in the forum, that's a very good beginning for convert this code in C++
8) "game makers" doesn't exist, in Minetest it's a core dev team, many people in this team discuss about features to add or not to add in Minetest, if they all agreed/a majority vote is done for a feature, it's added...

If I can add something :
Many things need to be part of the core in Minetest, if devs core doesn't understand this, many servers will run "******" instead of Minetest in the future (***** because i don't know if i can speak about it :))
Less LUA and more core features result to a server with 50+ players and a lot of "heavy"(normally LUA) mods for a great survival server with a maxlag really near zero (anyway, under 1 000ms)
 

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Re: Hunger

by Napiophelios » Sun Nov 29, 2015 22:22

How many games on this forum so far are not "minecraft-like" in one way or the other?

anyway...

My vote is just my opinion,Evergreen, which is in turn based on my personal theory/hope
that it will improve performance. I have tried Blockman' and Wuzzy's hunger mods, I like them but
I can really tell a big difference in game play performance when I dont use them.
 

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Re: Hunger

by Ferk » Sun Nov 29, 2015 22:32

@Minetestforfun, the implementation inside core that is getting suggested is still mostly done in lua. See it. The only part that is done in C++ is storing the value and keeping the position of the bar. Which are not really performance bottlenecks.

It's still gonna be slow because the loop that updates hunger is still done server-side so there has to be a message to each of the clients for each update.

Also, looking at the code I see that there's a minetest.after for every single player, instead of a global one that loops through all the connected players. Wouldn't this be less efficient since it requires more changes of context?

In my opinion, I'd rather see the speed problems fixed having an API that allows for generic player attributes. As well as being able to do client side updates in Lua and not require so much communication with the server.

We can add an option for the engine every single time we decide we want something and be forced to duplicate the code in the mods to override it... or check what parts need to be coded in C++ and add an API to performs them (in C++) that can be called from Lua. This way if we manage to do it generic enough not only Hunger will be able to benefit from it but any other player attributes.. like the sanity from the "beware the dark" mod, or the stamina, or mana, or any alternative and custom implementation of hunger, with a good API even the breathing bubbles could be safely made a mod. And client-side Lua could be used for other things as well (mobs!).
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Re: Hunger

by Wuzzy » Sun Nov 29, 2015 23:27

Suggestion/poll unclear, I selected “Something else”.

It is not defined what you mean with “adding hunger”. You did not specify the gameplay implications of such a change nor any of details which may be relevant. If there is hunger, how should it work? What would be the rules? If it would be a “core feature”, how would it work and how would modders use it? And what could/couldn't modders do with such a system? And, and, and … there are way too many open questions which are leaves big room for interpretation, so there is no reasonable way to discuss this right now.

You just made some vague allusions about some hunger mechanic, but nothing concrete.
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