FOSS gamedev and creative worlds

Some mods come with a crafting-guide, that looks like a book in the inventory.

It would be nice if a new player could get a book with some pre-written text
in his initial inventory, e.g. with some text "Welcome to game X", or a survival-guide
with a list of mobs/monsters, and tips on what-to-do/what-to-avoid.

For example, the mod TNG has new items, like bonemeal and feathers.
But there are no explanations in the download.

Also, the inventory currently shows "Book with text" for all such books.
It would be nicer to show the actual book-title.

Edit:
see also Mod Placeable Books

You probably could use this mod to do this :

Server Guide Book

I hope this mod fits your needs.

I made a wiki-page for the texts that should go into that guidebook.

This is a nice and simple suggestion which would help with the very first steps. Players who don't need it can just throw the item away.
But the text must be very short and can only contain the minimum basics if we're only using the book with text. This is also a good starter for those who just finished the Tutorial.

Because it is not obvious that the first important thing to do in Minetest Game is punching trees. ;-)

I think for Minetest Game text could be based on this: http://wiki.minetest.net/How_to_build_your_first_house

If Minetest Game would have a crafting guide, then the intro text could be very short, everything which comes after tree punching and the first pickaxe can be mostly inferred from the crafting guide then.

It would still not replace a full manual: Farming and the furnace might still need an explanation. But it is definitely a start.

Hades follows a very similar approach: At the beginning it shows a very short message in chat telling you what to do first, and then telling you to continue survival with the crafting guide. This works great, as this completely avoids the need for a wiki or something like that. But I do like the “Book with Text” idea.

Oh, and it has been suggested before to add support for custom tooltips, the developers get annoyed by unspecific Books with Text, too. ;-)

For example, the mod TNG has new items, like bonemeal and feathers.
But there are no explanations in the download.

This problem would be only poorly solved by Book with Text when you start to add more and more complex items. You'll run out of space and nobody wants to carry piles of books around. I'm pretty sure that my Documentation System modpack will solve this problem much better as it provides a simple way for mods to add long explanations about every item. It's still unfinished, but I work on it.

Wuzzy wrote:This is a nice and simple suggestion which would help with the very first steps.
Players who don't need it can just throw the item away.

Also, fuel for furnace :)

But the text must be very short and can only contain the minimum basics if we're only using the book with text.
This is also a good starter for those who just finished the Tutorial.
Because it is not obvious that the first important thing to do in Minetest Game is punching trees. ;-)
I think for Minetest Game text could be based on this: http://wiki.minetest.net/How_to_build_your_first_house

Well, except that page doesn't show how to actually build the house...
I have been working on that page, but didn't get around yet to making a house,
with screenshots etc.
Also, keeping in mind the making of tools, gathering of materials, hostile mobs, and nightfall...
So, see my text about TNG, too.

If Minetest Game would have a crafting guide, then the intro text could be very short,
everything which comes after tree punching and the first pickaxe can be mostly
inferred from the crafting guide then.

So, it depends if one of the craftingguide-mods or unified-inventory gets into the standard distribution.

It would still not replace a full manual: Farming and the furnace might still need an explanation.
But it is definitely a start.

Well, the idea was to crowdsource those texts via the wiki.
But I realize that there are too few wiki-users to expect much input that way :(

Hades follows a very similar approach: At the beginning it shows a very short message in chat
telling you what to do first, and then telling you to continue survival with the crafting guide.

Link?

hajo wrote:For example, the mod TNG has new items, like bonemeal and feathers.
But there are no explanations in the download.

Wuzzy wrote:This problem would be only poorly solved by Book with Text
when you start to add more and more complex items. You'll run out of space ...

My guidebook-mod is currently based on serverguide, which uses a row of
"tab"-buttons as links to pages. But that design is limited to about 5-8 pages.
I'm planning to change that formspec to a column of links at the left,
and a textbox at the right. That would give more room for buttons/pages.

I think the question you ask is really important. There are several cases.

For my little story, I currently write in French some article on Minetest. I test some mod and I spend most of my time trying to understand the different characteristics of these.

For example : Ethereal NG, a really fantastic mod, add new bioms, modify the map generation, add new trees...but no detailed explanations are given in the forum post or on the github repository. A book would be a really good idea (explanations on the forum post and github too for sure). I had really big difficulties to understand how Ethereal NG and More Trees! works together, knowing that for example they both add willow tree and trying to know how it works : do they both add the same tree ? If only one is choosen to be added, which one ? etc.

When a mod adds only decoration stuffs, a mod like Craft Guide is sufficient, we have the recipes and the possibility to scroll among the new item, Craft Guide really helped me. Other mods modifying the player's inventory don't always allow to scroll among the item but only seeking by the name, which is not pratical if there is not so much documentation for players on the forum/github.

I play on Mynetest server, there is a kind of craft guide which fit to this issue, XDecor mod which is installed gives no explanation on items neither on the forum post, nor on the github. I have no idea except browsing the code to understand fully what fantastic things this mod adds.

Another case, when a mod add complex new items, book with text isn't a good idea, craft guide is practical to find the recipes and try but external documentation is really needed as it is done for Mesecons.

Mesecons is a good example to solve the issue : nobody install it without having gathered some information on it which are easily available. But a mod modifying map generation, a book with text would be a good idea (and more documentation too).

To summarize :
- Craft Guide integrated by default would be a good idea, maybe optional activation
- Book with text to present mods which modify the map generation
- Better documentation to players for each mod more generally, I personally would like to help with pleasure but I'm not a developer yet, able to understand how it works only by reading the code (even if I try and succeed sometime).

Alcyone, I agree with you 100%.

I have identified the problem of poor or missing mod documentation a long time ago. Even if mod documentation IS available, it is often scattered around various webpages on different webservers which is especially bad if you play on servers with many non-trivial mods. And yes, you're totally right when saying a starter guide will not suffice for complex stuff like Mesecons.

What you describe is probably one of the most serious lacking features in Minetest. I mean, what's the point of allowing all sorts of mods if the players have a hard time to understand them?

I think the number one question players will repeatedly ask is: “WTF does THIS weird thing do?!”
;-)

- Better to documentation to players for each mod more generally,

You will probably be glad to hear that this is exactly what I am currently working on. I am working on a modpack called “Documentation System” (soon to be renamed to “Help”) to solve the problem of poor or inaccessible mod documentation once and for all.

It is still WIP but has come very far now.

If you like to check it out, grab it here:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15912&p=240152
Also download this if you use Minetest Game:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15224

Feedback about both mods will be very appreciated!


When I think about this, I think even the initial suggestion of a “starter text” in a book would be totally in the realm of my Documentation System. Technically, it is based on categories and entries and the “starter text” would then simply be implemented as a new entry. Then a simple special book item might be added to access this starter text and that would be it.
I just need to think of a way on how to add a clean support for this in my Documentation System. When I've got a good idea, I think I might make a proof-of-concept.

I think for Minetest Game a “starter text” could look like this:

-Punch trees to get trees into inventory
-Put trees into crafting grid and get wood
-Put wood into crafting grid and get sticks
-Craft wooden pickaxe from wood and sticks
-Survive with the crafting guide

I bet you noticed the obvious problem here: Minetest Game has no freaking crafting guide! >_>
But I am sure you get the general idea and I hope this goes into the direction the first poster actually intended.

Wuzzy wrote:I have identified the problem of poor or missing mod documentation a long time ago.

Well, just look how many mods have no description.txt / screenshot.png,
and the contents of readme.txt only has stuff that should be in licence.txt.

^ Ha! I think hajo just about summed up the biggest problem with Minetest mods in only sentence.

I am in favour of universal help system along the lines of what Wuzzy is developing. From a game mechanics perspective, the player should not have to rely on an inventory item for guidance playing Minetest. That information should always be readily available, preferably via the player's inventory. Perhaps the one exception to this principle would be obtaining and reading an instruction manual as part of some predefined mission objective, for example. Just my two cents :)

sorcerykid wrote:I am in favour of universal help system along the lines of what Wuzzy is developing. From a game mechanics perspective, the player should not have to rely on an inventory item for guidance playing Minetest. That information should always be readily available, preferably via the player's inventory.

Yeah, I agree.

My modpack has an encyclopedia item but it is optional. The player can always type in a chat command. But I know this is subobtimal.
A button in Unified Inventory is also available.

Sadly, inventory_plus is broken for Minetest Game (I would have used it otherwise), but Rubenwardy added sfinv in developer version of Minetest Game which allows to add tabs to the inventory. A page to add buttons (like in good old inventory_plus days) would do the trick. I already developed the code for this but it is unreleased so far. Wait for a while. :P

The problem is, except for chat commands maybe, there is no standard cross-subgame way to add some “extra button” or a way to access special formspecs like my help. All current solutions depend on the inventory which is always subgame and mod-specific. While sfinv is a huge improvement, it is still limited to Minetest Game. Other subgames may have to provide their own mechanisms to make special features available, so any mod would have to optionally depend on those, too.

That's why I added the encyclopedia item, it's like a fallback option. But crafting it depends on sticks (group:stick actually).
But I think for many subgames, Documentation System is probably already accessible.

But pedantically, currently the ONLY reliable cross-subgame way to open my documentation system is typing in a chat command. That's also why I haven't removed this chat command yet (although I like to).

sorcerykid wrote:Perhaps the one exception to this principle would be obtaining and reading an instruction manual as part of some predefined mission objective,

Basically that's the starter guide suggested in the first post.

Wuzzy wrote:I think the number one question players will repeatedly ask is: “WTF does THIS weird thing do?!”
;-)

Exactly x) and I really appreciate most of description.txt files
The one of More Ores for example :

Adds new Ore types.

...well, thank you for those precious precisions ._.

Wuzzy wrote:

- Better to documentation to players for each mod more generally,

You will probably be glad to hear that this is exactly what I am currently working on. I am working on a modpack called “Documentation System” (soon to be renamed to “Help”) to solve the problem of poor or inaccessible mod documentation once and for all.

It is still WIP but has come very far now.

If you like to check it out, grab it here:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15912&p=240152
Also download this if you use Minetest Game:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15224

Feedback about both mods will be very appreciated!

I will check that when I'll some time :) thanks

I was particularly thinking to a good readme.md file on github or a good first post on the forum as for most of the mobs mods. I would also appreciate more information on how mobs reacts but it's a bit too much for most of the players, but I think a part of the Wiki dedicated to mods would be interesting to centralized all information...and also to improve the part your mod displays inside the game :)

Another point is that some mods are advised here, directly on the official website. How it was decided ? I don't know but it would be interested to have more player documentation on mods which are obviously officially advised and updated regularly.

Wuzzy wrote:When I think about this, I think even the initial suggestion of a “starter text” in a book would be totally in the realm of my Documentation System. Technically, it is based on categories and entries and the “starter text” would then simply be implemented as a new entry. Then a simple special book item might be added to access this starter text and that would be it.
I just need to think of a way on how to add a clean support for this in my Documentation System. When I've got a good idea, I think I might make a proof-of-concept.

I think for Minetest Game a “starter text” could look like this:

-Punch trees to get trees into inventory
-Put trees into crafting grid and get wood
-Put wood into crafting grid and get sticks
-Craft wooden pickaxe from wood and sticks
-Survive with the crafting guide

I bet you noticed the obvious problem here: Minetest Game has no freaking crafting guide! >_>
But I am sure you get the general idea and I hope this goes into the direction the first poster actually intended.

Hum, not sure. In fact, if you install Minetest without getting any information to notice that it is an engine and not a game and that engine is bundle with two subgame, one minimalistic and another one VERY minimalistic for developers...you won't understand anything.
When you create a new world, there is no explanation next to the list of subgame, few help would be interesting to hunderstand the goal of the game and so for Minetest Game it could be explain that it is a basic game made like this to be improve with your choices of mods.
I really think the interface need more information, same thing for the website.

Then, there is the question of the integration of a tutorial subgame.

In fact, I really think in the end that Craft Guid should be integrated in the default mods for Minetest Game : it's only an item to create and stick somewhere, not a modification of the player's invetory. Player that doesn't want to use it can just not use it and that's all.

It's odd that this topic came up today. We've been toying with making a public server and are close to taking the plunge. One thing I'd like to do is have a "book" in the inventory of the new players with rules, howto's, and other server specific oddities included. Rather then a poor new and vulnerable player standing at spawn reading rules signs while other newbs are hacking at them with torches.
My master plan is to adapt this mod to hopefully achive this. We'll just see how that goes :)

ExeterDad wrote:public server .. "book" in the inventory of the new players with rules, howto's...
My master plan is to adapt this mod to hopefully achive this.

You have seen the Server-guide from posting #2 ?

That might be suitable if you only have a few / short texts.
It also supports intllib for translations.

OTOH, the gutenberg-mod might be a better base for a general textviewer.

Yeah I saw it and it's great, but I will be using a large amount of texts :)

How would a book be easier with large amounts of text? Don't books rely on standard formspecs?

I guess I still don't understand why a craftable item like a book should be required to view important documentation, rather than just making such information always available via a command or a button in the player's inventory viewer.

sorcerykid wrote:How would a book be easier with large amounts of text? Don't books rely on standard formspecs?

I guess I still don't understand why a craftable item like a book should be required to view important documentation, rather than just making such information always available via a command or a button in the player's inventory viewer.

A command or button would work very well I think too. But a book in the initial inventory of a new player would put it right there for them. Whenever you get free stuff to start out with... you naturally take notice to see what you have, you will notice the book and likely check it out. A command would work great later once the user learns what the command is.
Keep in mind I haven't actually tried this. It's just me thinking too much, and possibly just a hairbrained idea :)

A library would be cool. You go in and there are shelves with lots of books that explain all sorts of stuff.

A library would be cool. You go in and there are shelves with lots of books that explain all sorts of stuff.