0gb.us wrote:It doesn't matter how large the world is, if it last long enough, resources will run dry. Also, expanding the map for more resources wastes hard drive space.
0gb.us wrote:This isn't about custom games, it's about minetest_game. Yes, there is still the posibility for people to add renewable lave to their custom version of the game, but that's not the issue. The issue is taking it away from minetest_game, which when un-"modded" is the MAIN game of Minetest, the one that matters the most.
what you are saying is it would be easier to keep it in right there.. It would be easier to mod infinite lava in than it would to take it out
I agree there should be renewable stuff. Papyrus should grow so people can get more.Sokomine wrote:Papyrus is something that has gotten very hard to get on Redcrabs server, forcing people to roam around further and further from spawn just to look out for it - in regions where building something currently equivalents building in singleplayer mode because no one's ever going to drop by (except through a bug). So this ressource already is a problem. There are several mods that can help there.
you know how hard it is to cut stuff when replying to multiple posts on a tablet. It is near impossible even when I have my keyboard hooked up and currently I don't.10twenty4 wrote:yo Jojo, are you aware you can edit your posts? Especially when you're replying to multpile quotes at once, it'll help you cut down on the number of posts you have to make.
how about melt obsidian glass and get lava. Or melt obsidian and get 2 lava since solids are more dense than liquids. That kinda solves the no infinite lava problem and voices you lava source without a bucket which we could use in cooking.prestidigitator wrote:If it's not renewable, why not also switch off "buildable_to"? Wouldn't that help solve part of the problem? It seems like it would be tricky to build anything in a pool of lava anyway. Heh.
If there's a problem with the lava -> obsidian conversion and lack of conservation, perhaps a recipe could be developed for converting back the other way. For example, perhaps putting obsidian and a bucket in a special type of furnace could produce a bucket of lava. (Of course, this gets back to that point of the modding API being an easy fix for any of this, unless we include that special furnace or whatever it is in the default game.)
jojoa1997 wrote:you know how hard it is to cut stuff when replying to multiple posts on a tablet. It is near impossible even when I have my keyboard hooked up and currently I don't.
0gb.us wrote:This isn't about custom games, it's about minetest_game. Yes, there is still the posibility for people to add renewable lave to their custom version of the game, but that's not the issue. The issue is taking it away from minetest_game, which when un-"modded" is the MAIN game of Minetest, the one that matters the most.
that is better. It Would satisfy me if this was implemented. Maybe you could have both water and lava do that.prestidigitator wrote:0gb.us wrote:This isn't about custom games, it's about minetest_game. Yes, there is still the posibility for people to add renewable lave to their custom version of the game, but that's not the issue. The issue is taking it away from minetest_game, which when un-"modded" is the MAIN game of Minetest, the one that matters the most.
I kind of disagree with the assertion that minetest_game is the, "main game," or even, "matters the most." The whole point of the game IMO is that it is very easy to modify and extend. I'm sorry but playing without any mods installed is so simple and plain and boring you might as well just do everything in creative mode, which negates the whole argument about resource renewal or conservation anyway.
I think it is more useful to approach the design decision from the point of view of how difficult the behavior is to change and whether mods are likely to step all over each other in an attempt to fix something many authors see as broken. What about having minetest_game check for a configuration setting like "renewable_lava", when registering the nodes, and default to the current behavior if the setting isn't found?
10twenty4 wrote:0gb.us wrote:It doesn't matter how large the world is, if it last long enough, resources will run dry. Also, expanding the map for more resources wastes hard drive space.
while this is true to a point, with the scale maps are currently on, it would take a single person many, many years to completely run out of a non-renewable source. Even a serverful would still take a while, unless certain mods like Technic were used. Tell me, have you actually run out of resources yet, or are you just afraid of a possibility that might happen many years in the future, in a fictional world that can be reset and modified as needed?
10twenty4 wrote:0gb.us wrote:This isn't about custom games, it's about minetest_game. Yes, there is still the posibility for people to add renewable lave to their custom version of the game, but that's not the issue. The issue is taking it away from minetest_game, which when un-"modded" is the MAIN game of Minetest, the one that matters the most.
Your fallacy is assuming that non-renewibility 'takes away' from the game. To me, part of the appeal is the adventure of having to venture farther out to obtain new materials. I don't see the fun in setting up a little infinitely regenerating factory to build my legos with; if I want to build, I use creative mode. So to me, what you want would take away from minetest_game.
Which is why it's so great that Minetest is both open source and easily moddable, because we can both win. It would be easier to mod infinite lava in than it would to take it out, so I believe it would be better to keep it out.
prestidigitator wrote:If it's not renewable, why not also switch off "buildable_to"? Wouldn't that help solve part of the problem? It seems like it would be tricky to build anything in a pool of lava anyway. Heh.
If there's a problem with the lava -> obsidian conversion and lack of conservation, perhaps a recipe could be developed for converting back the other way. For example, perhaps putting obsidian and a bucket in a special type of furnace could produce a bucket of lava. (Of course, this gets back to that point of the modding API being an easy fix for any of this, unless we include that special furnace or whatever it is in the default game.)
prestidigitator wrote:0gb.us wrote:This isn't about custom games, it's about minetest_game. Yes, there is still the posibility for people to add renewable lave to their custom version of the game, but that's not the issue. The issue is taking it away from minetest_game, which when un-"modded" is the MAIN game of Minetest, the one that matters the most.
I kind of disagree with the assertion that minetest_game is the, "main game," or even, "matters the most." The whole point of the game IMO is that it is very easy to modify and extend. I'm sorry but playing without any mods installed is so simple and plain and boring you might as well just do everything in creative mode, which negates the whole argument about resource renewal or conservation anyway.
I think it is more useful to approach the design decision from the point of view of how difficult the behavior is to change and whether mods are likely to step all over each other in an attempt to fix something many authors see as broken. What about having minetest_game check for a configuration setting like "renewable_lava", when registering the nodes, and default to the current behavior if the setting isn't found?
0gb.us wrote:Let me rephrase. Minetest_game is just that. A full, complete game. It should be usable as such If you want to add "mods", go for it. But it should be fully functional even without them.
0gb.us wrote:Creative mode does not at all negate my argument. Creative mode makes everything have no value, as it takes no effort to get anything. It should take effort, but a non-creative world should still be sustainable indefinitely.
10twenty4 wrote:0gb.us wrote:Let me rephrase. Minetest_game is just that. A full, complete game. It should be usable as such If you want to add "mods", go for it. But it should be fully functional even without them.
Minetest is mostly functional, except for some graphical tweaks and some parts of the api. However, it's wrong to think of it as a "complete" game. The fact that virtually all of the default items, including lava, are part of the "default" mod should clue you in that this is a game designed from the ground up for modding it to your playstyle. The default is meant as a sampler, an example of what Minetest has to offer, while providing some basic objects to play with. If you don't like the sampler, mod your own. In fact, I'm doing just that. I hate how default Minetest/craft 'survival' mode is just a more grindy creative, so I'm trying to create a survival mod that makes the game genuinely challenging.0gb.us wrote:Creative mode does not at all negate my argument. Creative mode makes everything have no value, as it takes no effort to get anything. It should take effort, but a non-creative world should still be sustainable indefinitely.
What you view as effort, I view as dull grinding. Sure there's time spent, but there's no real work in gathering supplies, just a grind (and not the fun kind like in some rpgs). The fun of creative is in the design of your creations, not their purpose or the gathering of their materials. Survival is about their functionality.
0.gb.us wrote:Is there anyone who actually WANTS lava to be finite? And if so, why? What possible benefit is there to REMOVING the renewability it once had?
0gb.us wrote:One thing I notice is that no one seems to support lava being finite. Some people want old lava back, some people don't care, and some people suggest plugins or custom games to fix the issue. But no one is supporting the change of lava to being finite. Is there anyone who actually WANTS lava to be finite? And if so, why? What possible benefit is there to REMOVING the renewability it once had?
when you have a 2*2 and you fill it up with lava usually like 10 buckets you get 4 sources. Then you take a source and can't get the rest.prestidigitator wrote:0gb.us wrote:One thing I notice is that no one seems to support lava being finite. Some people want old lava back, some people don't care, and some people suggest plugins or custom games to fix the issue. But no one is supporting the change of lava to being finite. Is there anyone who actually WANTS lava to be finite? And if so, why? What possible benefit is there to REMOVING the renewability it once had?
I am considering the possibilities and making up my mind, personally; also trying to figure out if it matters. I haven't even tried the finite liquids yet. The suggestions I have made are because I see that there are people dissatisfied with both the old and the new solutions, so I voiced possibilities I thought might help bridge the gap.
10twenty4 wrote:0.gb.us wrote:Is there anyone who actually WANTS lava to be finite? And if so, why? What possible benefit is there to REMOVING the renewability it once had?
I'm actually neutral to the whole proposition, I just dislike your personal opinions.
Benefits: it can't be used as much to grief. It still can, but not infinitely.
It makes lava, and by extension obsidian, a rarity. This makes obsidian valuable.
Consider, how many other materials are renewable? Wood is, cobblestone is but grass and sand aren't infinite. There's only a finite amount of coal, iron, mese. Why should lava be renewable when these aren't? Sure it's physically similar to water which is renewable. But water isn't consumed to create valuable materials, either.
jojoa1997 wrote:when you have a 2*2 and you fill it up with lava usually like 10 buckets you get 4 sources. Then you take a source and can't get the rest.
10twenty4 wrote:I think all these complaints can be addressed with 2 words: modding api
Seriously, everything here can be easily fixed with a mod, and thanks to there being an api modding is easy as s**t (what's the stance here on swearing? I feel stupid starring it out but I'd rather not get filtered or banned).
These complaints are minor enough that I don't think they'd warrant changes to the source, but if you want them mod them.
Dopium wrote:You guys do know you can make a Lava generator? All it takes is a 1x3 pit with 2 lava source so you can have infinite lava without having to change a thing in the code. Just saying
prestidigitator wrote:Dopium wrote:You guys do know you can make a Lava generator? All it takes is a 1x3 pit with 2 lava source so you can have infinite lava without having to change a thing in the code. Just saying
I believe this whole thread is about a very recent change in Git which makes this untrue in the default minetest_game.
EDIT: Git commit a4426e4: "Make lava not renewable" (2 days ago)
Dopium wrote:prestidigitator wrote:Dopium wrote:You guys do know you can make a Lava generator? All it takes is a 1x3 pit with 2 lava source so you can have infinite lava without having to change a thing in the code. Just saying
I believe this whole thread is about a very recent change in Git which makes this untrue in the default minetest_game.
EDIT: Git commit a4426e4: "Make lava not renewable" (2 days ago)
Ah ok no worries, i havent updated for the last few weeks. Any idea why it was changed? Was it for a bug fix or a personal preference? I think personal preference changes to the source should have a poll, just like the change with Mese that not many people are happy about. Personally i liked having lava and water generators, to save time when building large projects
Jordach wrote:Y u no realise that since lava is non renewable, it makes places harder to grief as lava doesnt spread when the sources connect.
0gb.us wrote:The reason it's being done is just to make Minetest more like Minecraft. Minecraft lava has the same habit of not regenerating.
0gb.us wrote:This change makes it a lot harder to build things out of lava. For example, lava moats, lava beacons for lighthouses, and glass ceilings with lava pools above them to light a room.
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