FOSS gamedev and creative worlds

https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/commit/a4426e4bd48aeef79a4baf0adf54610b64139551#commitcomment-2822580

Lava and therefore stone is no longer renewable. Why not? Am I the only one that cares about having a world that can withstand the test of time? Without renewability, a game world can't last forever. As people destroy resources (such as filling up lava that is in their way because it it buildable_to or /pulveriz-ing their cobble because they don't want to store it, the resources will eventually run out. There must be a way to get those resources back!

EDIT: At least three people want a poll, so I'm adding one.

EDIT: Sorry about the typo in the fourth poll option. I can't edit it.

i agree 110%

Lava hitting water now makes stone instead of cobblestone, water hitting lava now makes obsidian. Therefore, obsidian is not renewable, but stone still is.

If you're worrying about resources not being infinite, there are several million nodes of stone in the world already. And hundreds of thousands of coal, iron and Mese nodes.

Lava is not renewable, but stone still is. Cobble generators are infinite, and you can make stone from cobble. You only need one lava source to have infinite stone/cobble.

I care a lot about renewability too, but I bring it about through mods. It's not for everyone, I suppose.

Conservation should be more important than renewibilty. I like the idea that this is a game about exploitation rather than building. If you don't do a good job preserving and rationing your lava fields, you have two options: move west or die (or run out of lava). If you absolutely need infinite lava, mod in the nether or an infinite lava source. actually, having a world where lava can reproduce infinitely could produce some interesting situations, assuming you still had options for building and transport (floating islands above a lava world, anyone?)

Conservation is indeed very important, and I play very conservatively, storing everything in chests, never /pulverize-ing, and never destroying that which need not be destroyed. But not everyone plays that way. Letting those that do not conserve destroy all the resources from under those of us that do conserve is not a great plan. Renewability is the only way I see to fix this, and trying to remove one way to be wasteful will just result in people finding another way to be wasteful.

The number of nodes is irrelevant, as this assumes a world that survives for years to come. No mater how many nodes there are, they will eventually run out if there is no way to replace them. The other thing with this is even before the world fills, people have to go further and further out to get resources, with no intention of ever building there. So they expand the map and fill more hard drive space, but this doesn't need to happen if we have renewability.

Okay. So our precious cobble is safe. My bad. Originally, the obsidian pull request used flowing lava to get the black volcanic glass. But this still limits lava and obsidian. This is still a bad thing, and it would be nice to have our renewable lava back.

Come to think of it, this is also inconsistent. Lava doesn't regenerate, but water DOES? That makes no sense. They should both act the same. In my opinion, making them both regenerate would be way better than making them both fail to regenerate.

0gb.us wrote:Come to think of it, this is also inconsistent. Lava doesn't regenerate, but water DOES? That makes no sense.

you have regenerating lava if you put the setting to finite_liquids = true. a fix would be to add lava springs to the game

This also makes lava the only thing that is buildable_to, but doesn't regenerate. So it can't be made, but it can mysteriously vanish if a node is placed in it? If lava isn't renewable, it shouldn't be buildable_to.

Do lava springs allow the creation of lava sources? If so, they should be added even when finite liquids are disabled.

Yes, as jojoa1997 said finite liquids have infinite lava springs that essentially give infinite buckets of lava. There is no concept of "sources" in finite liquids, but I assume this is what you want, having unlimited buckets of it.

I think it should be made renewable again.

Not just unlimited buckets, but also unlimited obsidian that comes with lava.

Obsidian needs sources. So if finite liquid means no sources, does that disable obsidian as well?

The lava hardening into stone and obsidian and the non-renewable lava are all from Minecraft. I'm not saying that everything Minecraft is bad, but this is a needless similarity IMHO.

0gb.us wrote:Not just unlimited buckets, but also unlimited obsidian that comes with lava.

Obsidian needs sources. So if finite liquid means no sources, does that disable obsidian as well?

yes it does. plus with lava in finite liquids you pick up one and the rest are flwomg so you can pick up anymore which i think is stupid

Menche wrote:The lava hardening into stone and obsidian and the non-renewable lava are all from Minecraft. I'm not saying that everything Minecraft is bad, but this is a needless similarity IMHO.

in minecraft lava is non renewable. wow poeple yelled at me for wanting something that is opposite of minecraft. i wish people would stop hating minecraft for its name and holding a grudge just because they cant get it. it is a great game. i hate it sometimes but i have to admire how far and well they have come.

Geologically, it is renewable in real life.

Do you have any idea how big minetest worlds are and how many resources are generated?
You sound like minetest worlds are 100x100x100 nodes with 10 lava sources.

Why is obsidian so tough? Real life obsidian is a type of glass; I think obsidian should have the toughness of normal glass.

Menche wrote:Why is obsidian so tough? Real life obsidian is a type of glass; I think obsidian should have the toughness of normal glass.

pilzadam didnt want that to be changed. the only way i could get it added is to let him change it. originally i had lava and water make glass and you could smelt it into rock.

jojoa1997 wrote:

Menche wrote:The lava hardening into stone and obsidian and the non-renewable lava are all from Minecraft. I'm not saying that everything Minecraft is bad, but this is a needless similarity IMHO.

in minecraft lava is non renewable. wow poeple yelled at me for wanting something that is opposite of minecraft. i wish people would stop hating minecraft for its name and holding a grudge just because they cant get it. it is a great game. i hate it sometimes but i have to admire how far and well they have come.

I wasn't hating minecraft, some similarities are unavoidable, being the same type of game. I just think that making details like the behavior of lava the same is pointless and makes us look like a copy.

I wish lava would harden into a different type of stone along with obsidian rather than regular stone. There could be a type of obsidian with a special type of mineral in it.

Inocudom wrote:I wish lava would harden into a different type of stone along with obsidian rather than regular stone. There could be a type of obsidian with a special type of mineral in it.

good idea

PilzAdam wrote:Do you have any idea how big minetest worlds are and how many resources are generated?
You sound like minetest worlds are 100x100x100 nodes with 10 lava sources.

It doesn't matter how large the world is, if it last long enough, resources will run dry. Also, expanding the map for more resources wastes hard drive space.

Inocudom wrote:I wish lava would harden into a different type of stone along with obsidian rather than regular stone. There could be a type of obsidian with a special type of mineral in it.

In other words, you want stone to not be renewable as well?

jojoa1997 wrote:

Menche wrote:Why is obsidian so tough? Real life obsidian is a type of glass; I think obsidian should have the toughness of normal glass.

pilzadam didnt want that to be changed. the only way i could get it added is to let him change it. originally i had lava and water make glass and you could smelt it into rock.

I think PilzAdam is trying to turn the game into Minecraft. Although ironically, I think he still doesn't play that game.

Menche wrote:

jojoa1997 wrote:

Menche wrote:The lava hardening into stone and obsidian and the non-renewable lava are all from Minecraft. I'm not saying that everything Minecraft is bad, but this is a needless similarity IMHO.

in minecraft lava is non renewable. wow poeple yelled at me for wanting something that is opposite of minecraft. i wish people would stop hating minecraft for its name and holding a grudge just because they cant get it. it is a great game. i hate it sometimes but i have to admire how far and well they have come.

I wasn't hating minecraft, some similarities are unavoidable, being the same type of game. I just think that making details like the behavior of lava the same is pointless and makes us look like a copy.

that wasnt to you it was to everyone. i added the hate part after i replied

I think all these complaints can be addressed with 2 words: modding api

Seriously, everything here can be easily fixed with a mod, and thanks to there being an api modding is easy as s**t (what's the stance here on swearing? I feel stupid starring it out but I'd rather not get filtered or banned).

These complaints are minor enough that I don't think they'd warrant changes to the source, but if you want them mod them.

the real problem is if it was a minor change then why was it changed in the first place

0gb.us wrote:

PilzAdam wrote:Do you have any idea how big minetest worlds are and how many resources are generated?
You sound like minetest worlds are 100x100x100 nodes with 10 lava sources.

It doesn't matter how large the world is, if it last long enough, resources will run dry. Also, expanding the map for more resources wastes hard drive space.

Inocudom wrote:I wish lava would harden into a different type of stone along with obsidian rather than regular stone. There could be a type of obsidian with a special type of mineral in it.

In other words, you want stone to not be renewable as well?

jojoa1997 wrote:

Menche wrote:Why is obsidian so tough? Real life obsidian is a type of glass; I think obsidian should have the toughness of normal glass.

pilzadam didnt want that to be changed. the only way i could get it added is to let him change it. originally i had lava and water make glass and you could smelt it into rock.

I think PilzAdam is trying to turn the game into Minecraft. Although ironically, I think he still doesn't play that game.

With the idea I suggested, the new stone could be crafted or cooked into normal stone. Obsidian could also be turned back into lava by cooking it.

jojoa1997 wrote:the real problem is if it was a minor change then why was it changed in the first place

Exactly. If it was so minor, just change it back to the way no one complains about. I have never once heard anyone complain that a resource is renewable, but I have heard people complain that resources are not renewable or that they are too rare.

10twenty4 wrote:I think all these complaints can be addressed with 2 words: modding api

Seriously, everything here can be easily fixed with a mod, and thanks to there being an api modding is easy as s**t (what's the stance here on swearing? I feel stupid starring it out but I'd rather not get filtered or banned).

These complaints are minor enough that I don't think they'd warrant changes to the source, but if you want them mod them.

This isn't about custom games, it's about minetest_game. Yes, there is still the posibility for people to add renewable lave to their custom version of the game, but that's not the issue. The issue is taking it away from minetest_game, which when un-"modded" is the MAIN game of Minetest, the one that matters the most.

EDIT: Minetest_game is an example for others to build off of. So it should be a quality example.

Inocudom wrote:

0gb.us wrote:

PilzAdam wrote:Do you have any idea how big minetest worlds are and how many resources are generated?
You sound like minetest worlds are 100x100x100 nodes with 10 lava sources.

It doesn't matter how large the world is, if it last long enough, resources will run dry. Also, expanding the map for more resources wastes hard drive space.

Inocudom wrote:I wish lava would harden into a different type of stone along with obsidian rather than regular stone. There could be a type of obsidian with a special type of mineral in it.

In other words, you want stone to not be renewable as well?

jojoa1997 wrote:pilzadam didnt want that to be changed. the only way i could get it added is to let him change it. originally i had lava and water make glass and you could smelt it into rock.

I think PilzAdam is trying to turn the game into Minecraft. Although ironically, I think he still doesn't play that game.

With the idea I suggested, the new stone could be crafted or cooked into normal stone. Obsidian could also be turned back into lava by cooking it.

that is stupid. what is the point of having obsidian if anything have obsidian glass turn back into lava

The obsidian shards could be melted in a furnace and turned into obsidian glass. Obsidian glass could be broken into obsidian shards and those shards could be crafted back into obsidian blocks. Come to think of it, normal glass could have a way of being turned back into sand.