[Game] Magichet: "The 1.2 'Non-Commercial' Release"

[4aiman]

It doesn't. I think you may want to add some more routes to your router or ask your ISP wtf is going on )

I can't tell you IP, cause it's dynamic. (So you do need to make your serverlist working.)
Right now it's 109.165.55.192.
The port is default: 30000.


What I meant by WTFPL is that anyone can suggest a mod only if a mod is WTFPL.

As for the list of mods itself - I want SOME mods that are Minecraft-like inside. Like enchantments, explosions, fire, lava<->water interacting etc etc. And I'm NOT against adding more features that are MT-only.


I'm not going to make my server a jail-server with dragon-like rules.
I don't even have an admin :)

But there WILL be one mod for protection. You won't be able to find a download, I guess, but it let you do following:

1. By default: protect all blocks that you've placed. No one will be able to dig or place near those.
2. IF you want - you'll be able to protect some area. But you'll protect ONLY the nodes you've placed inside that area. Any mapgen-placed node will be accessible to anyone. That's a reasonable approach, since some ppl may never come back after placing several nodes just to troll someone.
3.You will be able to grant any number of other users to build and/or dig inside your "semi-protected" area.
4. Every time you'll try to dig someone else's stuff or place near those - you'll be warned about it.
5. Should you ignore those warnings (20 times or so) - you'll get kicked. Trespass any more - you'll get banned.
6. A cool-down period will be there as well. Do not touch someone else's stuff and your warning level will gradually drop to 0.
7. There'll be commands to check for ownership, although a simple punch will be enough to tell you whether you can dig/build where you are. Punching does NOT count as a trespassing.
8. There will be admin tools.
9. There will be a "vote" system.
10. Only highly-respected ppl will be able to use those admin tools.
11. To protect the server from some jerks becoming important I'm planning to add some weight to ppl's "votes". It's a long story)

12. All of that won't be added to the server software until a certain event will occur. I call that event "The Liberation" and it's NOT connected with the Minetest or Magichet.

Right now it's a nice testing server w/o any rules. I need my game polished before starting to restrict ppl.
Right now it's more important to let ppl get all the stuff they want.

I don't like the fact that some bastard stole my furnace, though ;)

[ABJ]

1 and 2 conflict. If you protect only the block you've placed, it does not make sense to protect areas at all. You protect areas to protect EVERY node inside. The way you're doing makes protection and no-protection the same. For example not protecting a crater and simply replacing all blocks has the same effect as protecting and doing that. And if you protect and not change means it is unprotected. Your way of protecting makes protection useless. This is actually WORSE than md's LAB. You should think better 4aiman. The areas mod does a better job.
Hope you will correct this or remove the protection part of the mod to get that little boost. :)
-A very confused player

[4aiman]

First of all, there's NO protection installed.

Second, you're totally wrong, ABJ:

I'm not going in for arguing about the design - that's up to me to decide what should I do.
I've my own head, you know ;)
Also, you haven't tried my protection mod yet.

My protection system has seen many things that have made it to be the way it is.
It is simple yet effective.
It IS broken and outdated ATM, but updating an fixing it is on my "TODO" list.

I will explain why you're so wrong nevertheless.

or example not protecting a crater and simply replacing all blocks has the same effect as protecting and doing that. And if you protect and not change means it is unprotected. Your way of protecting makes protection useless.

That's true and not true at the same time.

You can't protect just "some" area.
Why do you want to protect smth that isn't yours anyway?
Protecting an area won't make it yours.
It's ONLY designed to protect what's already yours AFTER the protection mod will be installed.
Or do you really want to rebuild everything to protect it? A huge castle? A weird gStone circuit?
I don't want anyone to suffer through that.

On the other hand, you won't be able to grab an area only because you wish to.
Build smth and it'll be yours.
The landscape will be for everyone unless you replace every single node of it.

Where should I search for you if you take ownership all diamond mines near the spawn and then disappear?
I don't want to be bothered by such a situation OR abuse the "server" privilege.

Moreover, areas as a base of protection are not needed.
One may want to ask me: "What if I want to protect first and build inside a protected area?"
The answer: you can't and that's not necessary.
With the per-node system the "bounding box" of any "area" will grow proportionally with one's needs.


The other question may sound like this: "Then WHY on earth you've added areas? Those are useless!"
The answer: No, they're not.

Areas are designed to simplify management of the protection not to be the "base" of protection. You may grant the right to dig/build to ANY number of players even prior to building smth. And if they abuse those permissions - you will be able to revoke that using areas.

It's NOT enough to claim the area yours. If you just claim the area while others will build their houses there you'll end up without area AND a house. It's life, dude.
Want to have a house? Build it and it'll be yours.

Want to decide who's going to be build inside some empty area?
That's a "no can do". You're NOT an admin to decide for others.

Thus, the purpose of areas is easiness of management your buildings.
And the phrase "IF you want - you'll be able to protect some area." means "you CAN protect an area if you want, but that will require building not only walls but the landscape as well OR creating a huge box of any node.

The latter may seem too strict, but grabbing an area just to preserve a landscape is much, much more horrible thing.

Imagine yourself a Japanese making a stone garden. IF you want landscape to be great - do it yourself.

Natural structures are beautiful as they are.
If anyone try to preserve ANY landscape he/she creates "sanctuary".
And those are 'not' natural.
I treat that stuff as a "human made". I don't care whether "made" means doing or not doing anything.


The bottom line is: with this system the only thing which is needed is banning those who try to build everywhere.
But that will be managed through the vote system (which is subject to be polished).

[ABJ]

..........until you discover that your base is floating over someone's city :D
And BTW I HAVE got the server list working, but it isn't connecting to your server. I went from public list but no

[4aiman]

..........until you discover that your base is floating over someone's city :D

That would be a feature :D

And BTW I HAVE got the server list working, but it isn't connecting to your server. I went from public list but no

Does it just hang up or tell you smth?
Also: just tried - it seems that the server had crashed a while ago. OR there was another blackout. There are repair works all over the place :)

[ABJ]

Just hangs up, does nothing. Stays at "Connecting to server" dialog.

[4aiman]

Then I'll post a message here, in this thread, once I'll get home and check how the thing's are going.
Be sure to check the thread out around 5 PM GMT+0
(I may be able to post earlier, but can't promise that much.)

[twoelk]

a protection mod that forces me to rebuild the landscape if I plan to intigrate my buildings into it - I'm not sure I really understand how this would work well.

If I for example build a castle on some scenic hill, some one can come along and steal that hill and leave my castle floating in midair.
If I built a harbour with a ship somebody might come along and take all the water.
If I build a protective wall anybody can just build some stairs close to it and jump over it.
If I build a structure to be viewed from some distance like some pixelart somebody might place a wall right in front of it.

I understand the basic idea but I really wonder how this will workout in reality on some server with real players - the good, the bad and the ugly.

[4aiman]

The server is up!
======================


@twoelk:
It really works. At least it HAD worked for nearly 150 users a year ago.

Besides, why you've considered any landscape yours?
Why you're thinking you're better then anyone else?
Who allowed you to decide that the sandbox voxel world NEEDs the cliff you've chosen?

It's really sad how people got used to the situation and calmly go to +xxxx coordinate to find a spare place.
Almost any server with area protection suffers from that - you log in, want to get some food and a shelter, but... yep, you have a LONG way to go before you can do that. Because some ppl decided that newbies shouldn't be allowed to devastate "their" precious landscape.
Thanks goodness if there's travelnet installed. But it's not everywhere.


Thus:
If there will be some jerk who will try to "steal" smth that wasn't yours from the beginning and you want to stop him or her - you will be free to convince others to vote against the person and get him kicked or banned.
OR you may want to shift-watch your precious building with your friend.

If you won't be able to communicate with people then it's not the fault of a protection system.


And one more time:
Magichet is a survival game.
Ppl should learn how to communicate in order to stop being a ghost or to defend against mobs.
If they are going to argue about the place - they will die frequently and it won't be fun.

[4aiman]

Oh, and one more thing...
What if I claim all areas on all 4 sides of your area and build a 10-nodes-high wall all around your area, but on MY land, say, within 5 nodes from the edge?
You won't be able to jump over, cause you won't be able to place anything within MY areas.
And you can't jump over 5 nodes.

So... what would you do? Go underground?
And what if I'll claim all 6 "faces" and enclosure your building into a "dirtbox"? )))

My point is... areas are as much inconvenient as any kind of protection.
I try to deal with those kind of situations by letting ppl discuss the matter or even grant someone widely-trusted member the right to "fix" some issues by digging those hypothetical walls of mine.
And that's the main point: ONLY trusted ppl will get a TEMPORARY right to dig otherwise undiggable and build where no one can while the "lord or the area" is absent.

[twoelk]

hehe...
I get your point and all things you describe (and some of the stuff I mentioned) have happened to me on the one or other server. Indeed I have built a lot of stuff that has become pointless because of what my new neighbours built. So the message is I should not built something that depends on any landscape to work and be it just for a nice view. Now of course I wonder what value landscape should have if it is not protectable. As it seems none at all except for exploiting. Not that this very far from the way things work in real life. I know a lot of places where built up area is munching at the landscape and if nature is needed some artificiall park is built. Don't get me wrong, I love Japanese gardens but they are indeed the top notch in the art of designed landscape where nothing is natural but made to look as such - an illusion of natural landscape. Just as most masterpieces of art.

I must confess that although I normally try to fit my buildings into the landscape I often remodell some of the surrounding area like adding ponds and streams. I have stopped building close to spawns just because there is soon no space for space there, just as in real city centers.

and yeah survival is about not starving, killing mobs, ganging up with friends and guarding my stuff against the others with a sword in my hand. Survival is not about creating beautiful places or preserving them.

Reminds me of an uncle of mine who called himself an idealistic communist in search of the ideal human to populate an idealistic world. He considered the idea of "Genius loci" or "Spirit of a place" as an extravagant useless luxury just as most arts. He did admire Shaker furniture though as it was usefulness made with high standards and still pleasing to the eye.

This has actually made me quite curious, so if you some day find some ugly cobblebox that surrounds a nice inner garden I might have visited your server :-P

[ABJ]

Hooray for Minecraft! :D
IDK.........I might actually LIKE to see my city/base/whatever turned into a skycity.
Depends on what I built.

Actually, twoelk gave me an idea.
Build a rocket/airplane base, and then when someone "steals" the terrain below, you'll have a super-cool base at the expense of the "griefer".

[4aiman]

I just think that if the server community does not respect your work and ruins the imagery of a scenery...
Then either those ppl are real dorks and you should try to get them banned OR you've done something of a poor quality.



I'm not into judging, but as for me and/or my friends - we have build a lot of various stuff.
The worst thing that has happened so far?
Stealing. Or placing nodes.

A couple of nodes here - a hole there...

The other day I've discovered that I no longer have a chest and a furnace.
Despite those are easy-to-get I've got mine stolen.
And that was done by breaking a hole in my glass roof - the only block in my hut that can be broken w/o any tool.
The building itself and the landscape are still intact (except for that single glass node).



I remember playing MT @minetest.ru.
There were absolutely no protection or hunger or mobs.
But there was a man of art. He had built enormous castles, bridges, towers, whole streets of huts, houses, hotels etc etc...
How many there were those who tried to destroy his masterpieces, how do you think?
I can tell you - there were none.
We ALL helped him with resources, so he could build instead of digging.
That was the power of "creation" multiplied by the good-hearted ppl.



As for the Genius loci - if there truly exists one - the place will not be tinkered with.
Just like those castles @minetest.ru.

I don't think that fine arts are useless or that there are no places to protect.
It's just I don't think that "protecting" will solve anything.

Multiple works exist that highlight one simple fact - in any community there are:
- 5% of those who would never try to do smth inappropriate
- 5% of those who would always try to do smth inappropriate
- 90% of those whose deeds are affected by the current balance of the "good" and "bad" ppl.

That being said, if someone starts to dig nodes at the spawn - there are quite good chances for someone else will join the first one. With two of them - some other ppl may join too.
That includes the "traces" of "tinkering".


My point?

There's always some "stick-around" type of a guy on any server.
You build a house - he wants to live with you.
You protect the scenery - he starts "protecting" it too.
You try to build something - he needs to be nearby and starts to dig his own dirt-house in the least suitable (but really not far) place.

All of that is generally done w/o asking you.
But what did you expected? ;)
If you can dig, ten he can do it too.

And despite you and I may don't like it we have no right to complain.
In fact, should we start to - that other guy will start doing the same.
And instead of making friends with that newbie you'll turn him into a griever.


That's why voting is a must-have addition to protecting.
Even if a rotten community will rise - there will be a record for everyone responsible.
Then and only then the "server" privilege should be abused.

This has actually made me quite curious, so if you some day find some ugly cobblebox that surrounds a nice inner garden I might have visited your server :-P

I'll be fine with that ;)

[4aiman]

Hooray for Minecraft! :D
IDK.........I might actually LIKE to see my city/base/whatever turned into a skycity.
Depends on what I built.

Actually, twoelk gave me an idea.
Build a rocket/airplane base, and then when someone "steals" the terrain below, you'll have a super-cool base at the expense of the "griefer".

Hehe.. :)

That would be a lot of trouble to dig everything below your city. ;-P
Besides, someone who has dug up all that stone/dirt/whatever may well end up selling his resources for food to the ones who need those resources.
Thus, he/she will be helping the others to build.
Maybe just to "steal" some more scenery :)

[ABJ]

I still can't get on :(((

[4aiman]

I want to decide on what software I should run the server.
Freeminer is faster and more network-optimized (plus it has some neat additional API functions) and I'd like to use it,
but on the other hand FM's servers are empty..
So, here's a link to a poll I've created: http://www.poll-maker.com/poll318845xdA844D4c-12
The results may be found here: http://www.poll-maker.com/results318845x8Ecefd09-12

Please, participate!

[ABJ]

Hey wait! Is Magichet a software of it's own? May I have a link then?

[4aiman]

It is and it's not. Currently there is android test app available on google play.

[ABJ]

Oh. I don't use android in home country. :ineeddat.gif:

[4aiman]

Actually, I can make Magichet MT-compatible.


Also I've added some stuff:
- mobs have a chance to spawn in armor.
- there is the in-game guide in a form of a book! (You'll get one as soon as there will be at least one free slot in your inventory.)
- config save fixes applied.
- fixed mobs' drop pickup.
- added some test localization to the 4itemnames - now the language depends on your choice.

If there are any Russian-speaking players, please, test the server and report here.
I need to know whether translation* works for you.
Use /lang to show the language selection dialog.

___________________________________
*Only some essential things were translated.

[Sokomine]

Actually, I can make Magichet MT-compatible.

I'm sure a lot of players will enjoy that. It's always good if a mod can be used with both Freeminer and Minetest. I don't know how significant the changes are and how much work needs to be done in order to port a mod. Does Freeminer try to keep its api compatible?

[4aiman]

The latest changes:
- 99% of items names are translated;
- 4itemnames shows the name of an item you're holding atm in the language you 've chosen;
- armour pieces stats has been revised and fixed to provide the amount of protection those were meant to provide.


@Sokomine
When I've said that I can make Magichet MT-compatible I was speaking about the Engine.
It was a comment to the poll option.

The "magichet" subgame IS used within MT at the very moment.

And please, don't call my subgame a mod.
I'll explain why I feel offended:

+ Spoiler

I'm working on it for 1,5 years.
It contains 52 mods, 28 of which I've coded from scratch by myself.
All other mods were WTFPL.
And most of those are heavily tweaked
Even the default mod was completely re-done.
Thus, magichet is the first game that doesn't use the standard default mod. (AFAIK, re-hash games DO use the default mod from the minetest_game, albeit changed.)

There're also over 500 textures drawn from scratch. Over 1000 were re-drawn based on the existing textures.
That's a lot of work for only one single man.

Considering FM:

It doesn't try to keep compatible.
Because it's connection-wise incompatible.
FM uses enet - a fast and furious network lib. It's better than MT's networking performance-wise. No jokes.

Recently proller have added a way to compile the FM with MT protocol.
However, that does mean, that there's NO speed optimization.
Moreover, FM has some additional network packets for various stuff.
Should I compile FM or Magichet engine (besed on FM) with MT-netforking - some functions WILL be broken.

Next: FM adds it's own API functions while not deleting those deleted by Minetest.
Among not-deleted are get_temperature and get_humidity.
Among new ones are get_surface and colorize.

Some of those may be re-coded within lua (I've done that for get_surface - but it's dozens times slower of course).
Some can't - like colorize.

Moreover, I'm intended to add some additional stuff to the engine, but that will make my version incompatible with the current stable.

I can do that for FM, but ppl don't want to use that engine for some reason.
As for MT - I can't wait till some bunch of those-in-charge will decide to let my changes in. But that means I should provide my own builds - compatible with current dev MT.

Would anyone use my build to play my only game which can't be played outside my server? I doubt it.
So, my game is suffering from the imprinting syndrome of those who don't like FM for some reason.

[ABJ]

4aiman the links on OP to github don't work;DL links come up with a not found, and code links come up with that horrible github "THIS IS NOT THE PAGE YOU ARE FREAKING LOOKING FOR!!!!!" picture.
Can you fix?

[4aiman]

I know it doesn't work.
Github's repo was outdated anyway.
So I've deleted it.
The only available version of magichet is my private server.

The outdated magichet can be found on google play: org.magichet.magichet.
The sources are there. The app is free.

Currently only a limited number of people have a copy of the latest magichet subgame.
Those are working hard reporting various bugs and testing new stuff. They also get payed for doing that for, at least, 5 hours a day.

I'm sorry, but there are guys who are selling even that outdated version of magichet as we speak.
So I want to polish the game and then release a free but non-commercial version to stop those guys from exploiting my hobby.

Then I'm planning to update the android app and make 2 versions: free with ads and payed without.
The functional will be the same in both. The sources of a game will be there too of course (I'm too lazy to hide or protect those).

My objective is making a free game and making sure it will stay free.

I don't need any more testers, but for those who ARE interested in my game there's a server. It's up around 60% of a day. Later I'll make it be more available.

I may give out sources to some more people for testing purposes, but I don't have resources to pay for that.
Should that happen, I'll be inclined to ask to not distribute and/or modify it in any way.

Currently there are 3 (3 specific, not "total") of those to whom I may give the sources without hesitation.

[4aiman]

Attention, Linux users!

Due to the fact that my game uses 2 languages across 2 types of OS (Windows AND Linux-based) AND the ever-lasting problems with UTF in Minetest a bug has arose:
Linux users WON'T be able to see any hints (names of the items in any inventory) even if they will chose "ENG" language.

Those, who want use Russian language in Minetest launched in Linux are affected too.

In order to FIX the <invalid multibyte character> you should do the following:
- generate additional locale
- launch terminal
- set your current locale (will affect only the terminal you've just launched and apps launched from it, e.g. NO harm to your OS)
- launch Minetest from that terminal.

In Debian-based OSes (Ubuntu, Mint, etc) the above things are done like this:

1. Open a terminal, type:

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

Code: Select all

locale-gen ru_RU.CP1251

(no need to "sudo")
2. Press "Enter"
3. Type

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

Code: Select all

export LANG="ru_RU.CP1251"

(no need to "sudo")
4. Press "Enter"
5a. Type

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

Code: Select all

minetest

and press "Enter" if you've installed it from the repo.
5b. "cd" to your minetest dir, type

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

Code: Select all

./bin/minetest

and press "Enter" if you've build MT by yourself.

You'll absolutely need to do this EVERY time you launch MT.

[ABJ]

Personally, talking about Freeminer, I've had tons of lag playing it on SP, and as of yet have not tried MP. But I don't hate it.

[4aiman]

IDK what are you talking about.
FM is wa-ay faster in terms of networknig and generating maps.
While MT has difficulties with 50 ppl online, FM has no troubles of serving over 100 ppl simultaneously.
Are you sure you're talking about "lags" and not "low FPS"?

Also, what are the SP and MP?

[ABJ]

Actually, low FPS AND lag. And I've just tried multiplayer, and most servers I've tried automatically log me off to the selection menu after just enough time to see around. (around a few seconds) W/o any messages or shutdown bars. And others just return me in the loading process again w/o any message. And lava sources that were randomly placed around spawn area (Nothing to call "spawn" actually, just a bit of wild landscape) just stay there as if they were blocks. Such is the problems I'm facing.

EDIT: SP=Single player MP=Multiplayer.

[4aiman]

All but one of the FM servers are being run at one physical server.
The one in question is being run on ARM7 device.

But I've successfully played on 3 out of those servers.

When you're being thrown back to the loading screen - it means your client has FAILED to connect and get all necessary data. FM tries to re-connect for 5 times by default. Should it fail all 5 - you'll see a list of worlds again.

Lastly, FM gives you a reason: ping is over 10-20-30 seconds.
But I can play normally on those servers. So, ask your ISP about the route to setun.net.

[rubenwardy]

I've tried FM several times over the last 6 months, the last time was a few days ago, and there's either been unbearable low fps (5 fps compared to my 40 fps in MT) or unbearable lag (eg: inventory on single player). But I may have timed it wrong and got wip patches. An ideal game would be a compromise between MT and FM. FM's networking, MT's fps / community size. I do like how Freeminer has cool features like weather and farmesh.

The reason FM, it seems to me, has less stable commits is because there are less people checking. Minetest's still pretty terrible at checking commits.

So, ontopic, will you get enough players on a FM server? Is the loss of features worth switching to MT? I don't know how active the FM severs are.