FOSS gamedev and creative worlds

I've got a problem with the recent change "Prevent placing node when player would be inside new node" and severely dislike it.

Due to that change, it is no longer possible to place a block where you're standing. At first this sounds like a very logical limitation. Unfortionately, there are several situations where it severely interferes with building, while not making anything better at all. My houses are usually small and very detailed - a 2 block wide floor is pretty common, and the handrail and/or wall is thin. Now, with this change, it is no longer possible to get into the right position for placing these slim nodes.

Also it is no longer possible to conveniently "pillar up" (place block, jump up), which is very useful for reaching the right location for adding nodes to your building.

I think the controls ought to work in such a way that they do not interfere with/hinder building. If needed, this new functionality might be turned into an option for PvP-servers where building houses is considered a violation against server rules.

Hmm, I think it would be nice if the selection cube itself could be rotated (this would determine the initial orientation of nodes that are placed and make using the screwdriver easier.)

I can't really choose one of the above options, because I suggest that the feature you mentioned should have a way of being toggled on and off, just like running, flying, and noclip do.

This has bugged me too. It makes it really difficult for building and for the disable camera update "feature."

Seems I can't change the poll questions in retrospect.

How do you think the selection cube ought to be rotated? Can you explain further?

Turning noclip on allows to place the nodes and is an exception for the code above. But you don't want everyone running around with noclip on, and noclip does make building even more difficult. A new option for that would be ok. Servers enabling that option could then easily indicate that they don't want builders and are for PvP only.

Sokomine wrote:Seems I can't change the poll questions in retrospect.

How do you think the selection cube ought to be rotated? Can you explain further?

Turning noclip on allows to place the nodes and is an exception for the code above. But you don't want everyone running around with noclip on, and noclip does make building even more difficult. A new option for that would be ok. Servers enabling that option could then easily indicate that they don't want builders and are for PvP only.

I assume you are suggesting the noclip - freemove enables placing blocks where you stand?

There's an extra exception in the code for players with noclip on. It just doesn't help much as noclip is not useful for building.

I have a problem with this too. In MC, the jump and place is a big mess. I don't want a similar mess here.

this is just annoying :-( please revert this!

Inocudom wrote:Hmm, I think it would be nice if the selection cube itself could be rotated (this would determine the initial orientation of nodes that are placed and make using the screwdriver easier.)

That would really be nice.

It needs to be polished, but in general i like it. Without you were able trap yourself inside nodes you can not dig.

@PilzAdam
That one was obvious. I knew which one you where linking to before I clicked it ;)

PilzAdam wrote:http://xkcd.com/1172/

Haha, lol. The thing though is, this doesn't improve Antones workflow, so why was the change made? Was it a strive for realism (in a game!!) or was it to fix a bug in the machine that caused problems?

Dont forget that you can easily disable the behaviour by enabling "noclip", even if you dont fly.

Topywo wrote:

Inocudom wrote:Hmm, I think it would be nice if the selection cube itself could be rotated (this would determine the initial orientation of nodes that are placed and make using the screwdriver easier.)

That would really be nice.

To make rotating the selection box easier (I guess the middle mouse button could be used for this,) a holographic image of the node to be placed could be shown in it.

PilzAdam wrote:Dont forget that you can easily disable the behaviour by enabling "noclip", even if you dont fly.

Hmm hmm IMHO getting noclip on survival servers is almost impossible..

This change should be really reverted..

Pitriss wrote:

PilzAdam wrote:Dont forget that you can easily disable the behaviour by enabling "noclip", even if you dont fly.

Hmm hmm IMHO getting noclip on survival servers is almost impossible..

This change should be really reverted..

I agree.

Hybrid Dog wrote:

PilzAdam wrote:Dont forget that you can easily disable the behaviour by enabling "noclip", even if you dont fly.

Does it work without the noclip privilege, too?

No.

Pitriss wrote:

PilzAdam wrote:Dont forget that you can easily disable the behaviour by enabling "noclip", even if you dont fly.

Hmm hmm IMHO getting noclip on survival servers is almost impossible..

This change should be really reverted..

Well, survival servers are the kind of servers that want this behaviour anyway.
Creative servers should make building as easy as possible, and they can give noclip without problems.

Chances are you will get fly before noclip. If you have fly, then it doesn't really matter. If it could be changed so that it behaves like that when no-clip is enabled, even if you don't have the priv, then that would work.

I think this should not be reverted, but changed to "prevent placing node when player's head would be inside new node"

I vote yes, but maybe it should be an option ?

Inocudom wrote:

Topywo wrote:

Inocudom wrote:Hmm, I think it would be nice if the selection cube itself could be rotated (this would determine the initial orientation of nodes that are placed and make using the screwdriver easier.)

That would really be nice.

To make rotating the selection box easier (I guess the middle mouse button could be used for this,) a holographic image of the node to be placed could be shown in it.

I second that! A node with 50% transparency could be used for this

PilzAdam wrote:http://xkcd.com/1172/

These users are annoying, arnt't they? :-) Can't people just stick to compile the game and never ever use it? :)

Casimir wrote:It needs to be polished, but in general i like it. Without you were able trap yourself inside nodes you can not dig.

Hm, I was always able to dig the node if that happened accidently. Plus some teleportation/home command mods teleport you half inside the floor block - jumping is required to get out. And if you look at it that way, the current behaviour isn't exact either - because those nodeboxes I want to place are very small and *can* physically be placed where the player stands - it's just the same node. The player can afterwards walk along there without trouble. Only one side/exit might be blocked.

PilzAdam wrote:Dont forget that you can easily disable the behaviour by enabling "noclip", even if you dont fly.

Noclip is very seldom granted and has other side effects. Plus it does not help that much - with noclip, it's far more difficult to reach the correct position to place a node. Same goes for fly - it's not always the best option for reaching the right position. Of course, If you only ever build with full blocks and stick to the most simple house design, it may not matter.

PilzAdam wrote:Well, survival servers are the kind of servers that want this behaviour anyway.
Creative servers should make building as easy as possible, and they can give noclip without problems.

Perhaps this problem/misunderstanding aroses from how survival and creative are interpreted. I prefer to play on survival servers - gathering ressources is somehow fun, and - more important! - steering/placing blocks feels somehow easier in survival. In creative, some things work differently or not at all.
For people who want real survival/hardcore/realism, this client-based enforcement might not be enough anyway.

Inocudom wrote:To make rotating the selection box easier (I guess the middle mouse button could be used for this,) a holographic image of the node to be placed could be shown in it.

That would be very fine. I already thought about a tool with which you could point at nodes and call up a formspec which offers all 24 possible orientations. I just don't know yet how those orientations could be presented best. Any ideas?

It might have happened to someone else but me; when you build a bridge, sneaking high above the abyss, and you accidentally place a node on the wrong place you fall down all the way. - Can't happen any more.

@ Sokomine
Do the following: dig a hole 3 nodes deep into stone and throw away your picaxe, jump inside, place one stone above you, one at your feet and one where your head is.

Casimir wrote:Do the following: dig a hole 3 nodes deep into stone and throw away your picaxe, jump inside, place one stone above you, one at your feet and one where your head is.

The "throw away your pickaxe" is the critical point here I think. With empty inventory, falling into a hole where you can't jump out and everything around you is stone (or not diggable by hand) is enough to get you stuck as well. That's what /spawn and/or a home command are for.

Yes, Minetest is the game where you type /time 6000 every ten minutes. That is what makes it feel so incomplete.
In an actual game you should not have to type any commands, and things like "placing node when player would be inside new node" just should not be part of normal gameplay.

Casimir wrote:That is what makes it feel so incomplete.
In an actual game you should not have to type any commands

Suddenly, Quake.

Casimir wrote: and things like "placing node when player would be inside new node" just should not be part of normal gameplay.

Suddenly, overbounces, strafe jumping, rocket jumping... in Quake too.

On topic: The node placement should only be disallowed for full, walkable, opaque nodes, not non-solid nodes or nodeboxes (even if walkable). If that's not possible (or maybe it makes the gameplay too complex), just let nodes be placed anywhere and add suffocation damage, as a penalty.

Casimir wrote:Yes, Minetest is the game where you type /time 6000 every ten minutes. That is what makes it feel so incomplete.

The time lapse speed can be set to 0. I have permanent day in my singleplayer worlds. And on some building servers, it's always day (or day is turned on when someone requires it).

Casimir wrote:In an actual game you should not have to type any commands, and things like "placing node when player would be inside new node" just should not be part of normal gameplay.

It depends on the game you play. If you're building something, advanced commands like WorldEdit are extremly useful. If you want to play PvP or RPG, they might be disruptive. But then, there are better worlds/games for first person shooter kind of games and the like. This one's about building nice structures. Everything else...is a nice addition.

The logic is more important! (would not change the game much, but would be nice)

brunob.santos wrote:The logic is more important! (would not change the game much, but would be nice)

I must disagree. Gameplay is more important than logic in game..