Noteworthy discussions on the IRC channels

[celeron55]

(All #minetest-delta logs can be found at http://2pktfkt.de/irc/minetest-delta/)

--- Log opened Tue Aug 02 00:00:36 2011
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00:27 toabi is now known as toabi_bnc
00:27 < erlehmann> if we have dynamic surface humidity for the clouds
00:27 < erlehmann> and static ground humidity
00:27 < erlehmann> that can certainly be used for biomes!
00:28 < erlehmann> (they work that way in the real world)
00:28 < celeron55_> proper biomes are overrated
00:29 < erlehmann> i thought more of emergent phenomenons
00:29 < erlehmann> like, just say where a plant will grow, depending on 3 or 4 factors
00:29 < erlehmann> and then see how we get a believable terrain
00:30 < celeron55_> you guys are tinkering with very unnecessary stuff
00:31 < celeron55_> we need a properly working monster and battle system, including graphics and sounds
00:34 < celeron55_> well, i guess i will get to that when i have the time
00:36 < celeron55_> dunno, do whatever you like as long as it doesn't remove gameplay value or decrease performance
00:37 < celeron55_> my little brother thought minetest would need a character leveling system like in wow and such to act as a goal of playing. discuss.
00:39 * Lyse dislikes
00:40 < erlehmann> teddydestodes, decreases performance all the time.
00:40 < erlehmann> leveling systems are poorly disguised fake achievements
00:40 < celeron55_> also, random quests.
00:40 < Lyse> Minetest is like LEGO except that you have enough bricks.
00:40 < erlehmann> if on a personal scale
00:40 < erlehmann> i hope your little brother does not grow to be a programmer
00:40 < celeron55_> poorly disguised fake achievements are better than none; but feel free to invent better
00:41 < erlehmann> i only mean RPG style player levels. there is nothing wrong with your army leveling or something.
00:41 < erlehmann> show your brother this article http://www.pixelpoppers.com/2009/11/awesome-by-proxy-addicted-to-fake.html
00:42 < erlehmann> >It turns out there are two different ways people respond to challenges. Some people see them as opportunities to perform - to demonstrate their talent or intellect. Others see them as opportunities to master - to improve their skill or knowledge.
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00:43 < erlehmann> your brother may (no offense) be one of the former types. i am probably one of the latter.
00:44 < erlehmann> the problem is not with personalities, however. it is that games that gather to performance orientation are easy to make, but ultimately bland.
00:45 < erlehmann> on the same notion i am opposed to “achievements”, like “build a tower to the stars”.
00:46 < erlehmann> does openTTD have levels? no, but interesting gameplay. thing is, gameplay is *hard* levels are easy.
00:46 < erlehmann> but even minor things like better water could lead to much more FUN. imagine dams. draining underground caves.
00:47 < celeron55> i understand your point
00:47 < celeron55> so what do you exactly want, then?
00:48 < erlehmann> personally, i would like to have a focus on machinery, mining and interaction with the surroundings.
00:48 < celeron55> that's just extended sandbox to me, not even fun
00:48 < celeron55> there needs to be goals, without goals there is no reason to be means to do stuff
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00:49 * Lyse supports erlehmann's statement.
00:49 < erlehmann> mining could be more interesting if there are items that need, say, wonderflonium ore. but wonderflonium ore only occurs in extremly dry terrain. some rare plants could grow on the surface.
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00:50 < celeron55> uh, does this work now?
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00:50 < erlehmann> now, mining is more or less random. you just dig into a rock. boooring.
00:50 < erlehmann> lols
00:50 < erlehmann> but we could work on that. make it a strategic endeavour.
00:51 < erlehmann> i want to be able to divert an underground river so i can gather crystals that grow on the river bed and only there.
00:51 < Lyse> I would love to craft an excavator with which you can mine say four or eight blocks at once.
00:51 < erlehmann> that is also too easy.
00:51 < erlehmann> because it is a boring thing to do.
00:51 < Anchakor> now that is an original thing, would be fun to craft and manage mining machinery
00:52 < erlehmann> TNT could be slightly less useful, but more FUN.
00:52 < Lyse> Well, but for collecting blocks it would be great.
00:53 < Lyse> If you wanna build huge stuff you need tons of blocks, so with an excavator (or sth. similar) the „stupid work“ could be simplified.
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00:54 < celeron55> why does this fucking connection need to break just when i need it+
00:54 < Lyse> In my opinion building is the really awesome thing.
00:54 < celeron55> ?*
00:55 < celeron55> now, why would you need this "wonderflonium ore"?
00:55 < Lyse> Murphy's law
00:55 < celeron55> THAT is the problem
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00:57 < celeron55> building is not a good final goal, it gets boring relatively fast to me, for example, because there simply is no reason to do it
00:57 < celeron55> there are people that share this same feeling
00:57 < Lyse> the reason I do it simply is fun
00:57 < celeron55> for example the X guy from the youtube minecraft series
00:58 < celeron55> i fully share his feelings
00:58 < Lyse> I don't know him, what's he doing or thinking?
00:58 < celeron55> Lyse: you are not going to lose the freebuild ability, if that is what you are afraid of; why don't you think us others who don't get the kicks out of it?
00:59 < celeron55> i initially enjoyed it in minecraft and in minetest, but not anymore
01:00 < Lyse> Well, you asked for participation, so I gave my coins.
01:04 < celeron55> one possible final goal is survival, but having it as the main goal is silly because these two things exist at the same time: a) there is no permadeath, b) there is no other goal that dying would considerably slow down
01:07 < celeron55> one interesting option would be to spawn new players and died players in very random places, so that after dying they would need to start from the beginning or with somebody totally else who would have survived in near that spawning place
01:07 < Lyse> I don't know if there are any plans on it or if you already discussed it, but maybe some more physics will improve the game.
01:07 < celeron55> they are just means, not a goal
01:07 < Lyse> sure
01:08 < Anchakor> there are various kinds of players and if game mechanics would make it for more of them that would be more awesome
01:08 < Lyse> but I cannot think of a real goal
01:08 < celeron55> i just said one aloud: survival, and a way to make that work
01:08 < Anchakor> so kinda like DF :)
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01:11 < harrison> i like the new vegetables and trees with massy roots
01:11 < celeron55> there are all kinds of possibilities, actually, in which survival would be a side goal; like starting the players from an NPC village which would give them a difficult goal, practically involving travelling some distance, building a remote base, fighting monsters, trading stuff back to and from the village and finally fulfilling the mission
01:12 < Anchakor> celeron55: you want to have survival and creative as separate server modes?
01:12 < celeron55> CiaranG (a guy who has contributed some stuff) is into PvP team survival, in which player teams would try to fight each other
01:12 < celeron55> i am not sure what the win condition could be in that, though
01:13 < erlehmann> oh well. we would need to playtest that.
01:13 < celeron55> Anchakor: i don't have a huge passion to support creative mode, but i will drag it around as long as it is feasible
01:13 < erlehmann> i like creative mode :3
01:14 < Anchakor> I bet later minetest-delta will be the creative mode fork :)
01:14 < celeron55> i suppose it never gets unfeasible
01:14 < erlehmann> the way adamantium reaches into lava in dwarf fortress adds gameplay value, btw
01:14 < erlehmann> >Adamantine veins are shaped like vertical tubes and breach through any layer of semi-molten rock, right down into Hell. The lower layers of the vein are often hollow and act as a tube, leading straight to your doom. Breaching into the hollow centre of a vein has the same effect as breaching into Hell, so beware.
01:14 < erlehmann> hehe
01:15 < celeron55> DF has a clear goal: to survive; and it has permadeath, so it works very nicely
01:15 < celeron55> but permadeath doesn't work well in multiplayer
01:16 < erlehmann> indeed
01:16 < Anchakor> yeah
01:17 < Anchakor> I guess maybe some kind of goal would be item collecting
01:17 < celeron55> well, actually, it does
01:17 < celeron55> but it requires a non-persistent world, or at least non-persistent *something* in the world
01:18 < erlehmann> if permadeath is included in multiplayer, it will consist of hardcore traps everywhere
01:18 < erlehmann> humans are bastards
01:18 < celeron55> in minecraft the player looses items, altough he can get them back by just fetching them from where he died
01:19 < Anchakor> full item drop on death is hardcore in MMOs
01:20 < Anchakor> mostly it results in top level gangs hunting newbies and lower level people
01:20 < celeron55> actually, we could copy dwarf fortress a bit: we could think of a player to be the equivalent of an immigrant dwarf
01:21 < erlehmann> hehe
01:21 < erlehmann> expendable
01:21 < celeron55> there would need to be a delay from dying to spawn, so that a huge catastrophe could end the world if nobody would stay alive
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01:21 < Anchakor> yeah, waiting to be born :)
01:21 < celeron55> 02:21:04 < celeron55> it wouldn't need to be more than 5 minutes
01:21 < erlehmann> your internet is flaky, i assume?
01:22 < celeron55> no, it's sturdy as a piece of concrete
01:22 < celeron55> don't you see?!
01:22 < erlehmann> i like the immigrant dwarf idea
01:22 < erlehmann> at least YOUR ISP does not fuckup packets :(
01:22 < erlehmann> ._.
01:22 < celeron55> a player would have random items with him when he arrives somewhere near the spawn
01:22 < celeron55> and even skills
01:22 < Anchakor> who would be the village/fortress ruler?
01:22 < erlehmann> skills?
01:22 < celeron55> or even a different character, but that is currently out of scope
01:23 < celeron55> well, like a multiplier in sword damage or in defense
01:23 < erlehmann> skills are difficult. sounds too much like leveling.
01:23 < celeron55> to make things more varied
01:23 < erlehmann> but thinking more like dwarf fortress can probably get us somewhere … FUN.
01:23 < Anchakor> that would be nice to have option to have some characterization
01:24 < Anchakor> like autogenerated
01:24 < celeron55> no leveling, just a constant which will last until the character dies and the player respawns
01:25 < celeron55> dying is fun, as they say for DF
01:25 < Anchakor> I hope there would be no leveling and exping in minetest...
01:25 < celeron55> or, losing, actually
01:25 < Anchakor> though respecialization is good
01:25 < celeron55> ..........
01:25 < celeron55> Anchakor: 02:24:07 < celeron55> no leveling
01:25 < celeron55> Anchakor: 02:24:07 < celeron55> no leveling
01:25 < celeron55> Anchakor: 02:24:07 < celeron55> no leveling
01:25 < celeron55> get it?
01:26 < celeron55> good.
01:26 < Anchakor> maybe time to start writing it down
01:26 < erlehmann> Anchakor, ideas are cheap. also, we have a log.
01:26 < erlehmann> i wonder what could work in multiplayer to make players make work together more.
01:27 < erlehmann> sneaky enemies? sounds too simple.
01:27 < celeron55> the world could start getting worse and worse for survival after time, i think that's how it goes in DF?
01:27 < erlehmann> i like that :3
01:28 < Anchakor> "in minetest, there would never be these things: leveling, 3d monsters... fork it!"
01:28 < erlehmann> the world is going downhill. fortify.
01:28 < Anchakor> postapocalyptic setting would rule
01:28 < celeron55> like, initially some rat would come and eat your cookies, but at a later time you get a disease with the only cure 1km away in a dungeon full of monsters or an elephant run through your walls
01:28 < erlehmann> sounds horribly familiar ;)
01:28 < erlehmann> +1
01:29 < erlehmann> rat stealing out of chests would actually make them a pest.
01:29 < Lyse> They would work together, if characters would have different sort of skills (woodman, miner, ...) and must create some sort of building, whatever which needs different materials. But that could be too level-like.
01:29 < celeron55> we have one problem left: that doesn't work for public servers; but that really is not a problem, public servers can just be in freebuild mode
01:31 < celeron55> or they can be set to allow newcomers to just watch until an admin gives them rights for playing; whatever
01:32 < celeron55> or just let it be open for everyone; whatever
01:32 < celeron55> that is a non-problem, no need to think of that anymore
01:33 < Anchakor> let admins decide
01:33 < celeron55> that
01:33 < Anchakor> let admins code admin control features X)
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01:34 < celeron55> so it appears DF-style survival is fine for many people
01:35 < celeron55> Anchakor: i myself host a server and am in close contact to Kray, so having enough controls for admins is not going to be a problem
01:36 < celeron55> -
01:36 < celeron55> now we know our goal; i am going to sleep now
01:36 * Lyse will do so, too
01:36 < Lyse> bye
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EDIT: This continues a lot more in here: http://2pktfkt.de/irc/minetest-delta/2011-08-02.html