[Mod][Merged] Valleys Mapgen [valleys_mapgen]

[duane]

Duane, is there a reason for including the biome noises in MapgenValleysParams? Usually these noises are not included here.

Chalk it up to poor C++ skills. I might have been copying from someone else at the time, or just wigged out.

[burli]

Is it possible to make the soil layer thicker?

[paramat]

Core mapgen or lua version?

[burli]

Core

[duane]

Is it possible to make the soil layer thicker?

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#    The depth of dirt or other filler
#    type: noise_params
# mg_valleys_np_filler_depth = 0, 1.2, (256, 256, 256), 1605, 3, 0.5, 2.0

"1.2" is the default scale of the noise. "0" is the default offset.

[burli]

Thx, I set the offset to 1 for now

[paramat]

That's the easy way, but will affect all biomes equally. The more powerful way is:
minetest.clear_registered_biomes()
As the first line in a mod (that depends on default) then in that mod re-register all biomes with new values for 'depth_filler', copy-paste biome definitions from mtgame/mods/default/mapgen.lua.

[burli]

How can I get more plains in valleys mg (C++, not lua)? There are always some hills. I'm missing a "plains" biome.

But I still want steep mountains

[duane]

How can I get more plains in valleys mg (C++, not lua)? There are always some hills. I'm missing a "plains" biome.

But I still want steep mountains

Sounds more like mapgen v7.

[burli]

In general, yes. But I don't necessarily want to play on Pandora. And I want rivers and lakes

[ShadMOrdre]

I agree with burli.

Plains are sadly lacking in the valleys mapgen, which is otherwise, the best mapgen available. Geologic features do seem to be limited to mountains, hills, valleys and caves. Perhaps adding a noise value to a biome definition that could vary the amount by which terrain height is allowed? This would ensure that the awesome mountain ranges in the valleys mapgen remain, while providing a way to allow for flatter areas of the map in general. The width, depth, and general steepness of a valley could be defined separately from a rivers' definition, providing a mechanism to allow areas of flatter terrain within mountain ranges. This would also mimic real world geology.

Plains would also be useful in Sokomines' villages mod, by providing flatter areas for village placement. Using biomes to place the villages could help ensure that a 120m mountain isn't sheared off due to a village. ;)

[burli]

Plains are sadly lacking in the valleys mapgen,

Not only in valleys. Even v7 has no real plains. I mean really plain. Most plains are still slight hills. Didn't found something similar to this until now

[duane]

Gael de Sailly (and I) wanted valleys to be realistic. I've never seen a completely flat plain in reality (and I live in the Great Plains). Frankly, it's not a feature I'd want to see in valleys. I don't know of any way to produce completely flat features by modifying the mapgen noises without flattening the mountains as well. If you want more generally flat terrain, try these noises (again, it will not actually be flat):

mg_valleys_np_rivers = 0, 1, (512, 512, 512), -6050, 5, 0.6, 2.0
mg_valleys_np_inter_valley_fill = 0, 1, (512, 1024, 512), 1993, 6, 0.8, 2.0


You could make a mod that produces the terrain you want, but of course, you'd have to handle all the decorations yourself. Or you could use the flat mapgen and create a mod that just adds mountains and seas (since they don't have much decoration). Putting rivers in the flat mapgen shouldn't be difficult, since they'd all be on the same level. Or you could modify the lua version of valleys to produce flat terrain in some regions, though the transitions might be abrupt.

[paramat]

duane, i have a task for you if you're interested.
I tried boating through mgvalleys and the rivers are too narrow, when a jungletree generates with a root in the river it is impassable.
Also, the noise controlling the river pattern is too small scale, creating little loops.
Since you have experience of editing the noise parameters for a larger scale terrain i feel you are the person for the job.
I feel we cannot continue being completely faithful to the mod original.

[burli]

Gael de Sailly (and I) wanted valleys to be realistic. I've never seen a completely flat plain in reality (and I live in the Great Plains)

I know that totally flat plains not exist in nature, but look at these pictures

http://m.airpano.com/360Degree-VirtualT ... and-Tulips

Holland is nearly flat and if I look at some pictures mor flat than the great plains

Edit: and even the example on the screenshot is not absolutely flat. There are variations of 1 or 2 nodes.

[duane]

I tried boating through mgvalleys and the rivers are too narrow, when a jungletree generates with a root in the river it is impassable.
Also, the noise controlling the river pattern is too small scale, creating little loops.

The size of the river loops is mostly up to personal taste, but I'd recommend doubling the spread, as I did up there.

As for the boating, you're going to have to increase the default river size to at least eight to make the rivers at all navigable, and even then you're likely to have a lot of problems. I wouldn't recommend making it much higher than that though, because I seem to get a lot of overflows when I set it up to ten. I don't know why that should be.

[burli]

I've never seen a completely flat plain in reality (and I live in the Great Plains).

I've never seen a guy carrying thousands of cubicmeter dirt and other stuff with several 100 thousand tonns of weight ;-)

If you want more generally flat terrain, try these noises (again, it will not actually be flat):

mg_valleys_np_rivers = 0, 1, (512, 512, 512), -6050, 5, 0.6, 2.0
mg_valleys_np_inter_valley_fill = 0, 1, (512, 1024, 512), 1993, 6, 0.8, 2.0

this looks nice

[Gael de Sailly]

Mapgen parameters are very customizable. I'm sure that some settings will give you the plains you expect. But the mapgen settings are absolutely not user-friendly :-/ so much that I still have difficulties in finding the good settings.
What we do really need is simplified mapgen settings. The current mapgen settings interface is based on 10 to 20 noises per mapgen, and every noise is defined by 7 to 9 data. That might be good sometimes, but generally that's annoying. We need simple settings with recognizable names, like "mountain heigth", "steepness", "distance between rivers", … that, when changed, tune some noise parameters to produce the wanted effect, for example increasing the "distance between rivers" would increase the spread (numbers in brackets) of mgvalleys_np_rivers. The original "advanced" mapgen settings should still stay available.

[burli]

So what you need is an algorithm that translates a slider position e.g. for mountain height into noise settings. No idea if this is possible

[Gael de Sailly]

That's possible, obviously, but it needs the mapgen settings system to be reworked.

[paramat]

Increasing the spread of the river pattern will automatically increase river width, x2 would be fine and enough.

[sofar]

Rivers are the great geomorphological equalizers: they break down hills and deposit them near sealevel, building out deltas. The Netherlands is nothing but a large delta, but other transport mechanisms can make flat-ish looking landscapes, such as waves and wind.

What I mostly miss in minetest at the moment isn't large flat areas, because those exist, but just areas that only have (up to) 4-5 nodes altitude deltas total over 100+ nodes. Minetest's meadows have no vertical range limits and cliffs often break them out. The shape of meadows also is clearly still a curve or slope, while a terrace is a far more natural feature for true geological flat regions (usually river banks forming them).

[TumeniNodes]

Rivers are the great geomorphological equalizers: they break down hills and deposit them near sealevel, building out deltas. The Netherlands is nothing but a large delta, but other transport mechanisms can make flat-ish looking landscapes, such as waves and wind.

What I mostly miss in minetest at the moment isn't large flat areas, because those exist, but just areas that only have (up to) 4-5 nodes altitude deltas total over 100+ nodes. Minetest's meadows have no vertical range limits and cliffs often break them out. The shape of meadows also is clearly still a curve or slope, while a terrace is a far more natural feature for true geological flat regions (usually river banks forming them).

I have been playing around with mapgens attempting to create the "perfect" landscape (similar to what you describe, I think?)
Nice, large, low, buildable areas, with a wide river running through it, with maybe 5-6 or 7 nodes high banks along it's edge..., with gradual rolling hills in the distance and eventually mountains in the far background.
A "perfect" scene to build towns with small industrial works along the river, and to build nice bridges across, etc..
It becomes to monotonous if one has to shape a river out. I have started it a few times (even used the ultimate weapon mod to try to speed it up) but that ultimate weapon can be unruly :D
But to have said river open into a nice marsh area and into a large body of water would be really nice

[Gael de Sailly]

What I mostly miss in minetest at the moment isn't large flat areas, because those exist, but just areas that only have (up to) 4-5 nodes altitude deltas total over 100+ nodes.

Deltas are possible, but it needs to add at least one noise. We can sometimes find a marsh like this, similar to a delta:That's due to a noise that has a very low spread distance (actually that's the river noise #2 that has 5 octaves and a high persistance). So we need to add a noise value with a very low spread, the value would be usually small and would become much bigger on low altitude, for example with v1=v0*e^(-elev²). I'll try this.

[azekill_DIABLO]

+100

[paramat]

Gael de Sailly, are you interested in improving the noise parameters of core valleys? The main change needed being increasing the 'rivers' noise spread for wider, boatable, rivers and a larger river pattern with fewer small loops and circles. Just doubling 'rivers' noise may be enough. I was going to tune the mapgen myself but i think you're the ideal person.

[Gael de Sailly]

Gael de Sailly, are you interested in improving the noise parameters of core valleys? The main change needed being increasing the 'rivers' noise spread for wider, boatable, rivers and a larger river pattern with fewer small loops and circles. Just doubling 'rivers' noise may be enough. I was going to tune the mapgen myself but i think you're the ideal person.

Of course I'm interested :)

[paramat]

> I tried boating through mgvalleys and the rivers are too narrow, when a jungletree generates with a root in the river it is impassable.
Also, the noise controlling the river pattern is too small scale, creating little loops.

^ Those are the main issues.
I can make the actual PRs and do the complex git stuff so all you need to do is concentrate on the time-consuming work of tuning the noise parameters.
Improvements to the mapgen code can be discussed too.

[Gael de Sailly]

This is what I have for now:

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mgvalleys_np_rivers = 0, 1, (384, 384, 384), -6050, 4, 0.25, 4.0
mgvalleys_river_size = 4
mgvalleys_np_valley_profile = 0.4, 0.4, (512, 512, 512), 777, 1, 1.0, 2.0
mgvalleys_np_valley_depth = 6, 4, (512, 512, 512), -1914, 1, 1.0, 2.0
mgvalleys_np_inter_valley_slope = 0, 1, (256, 256, 256), 746, 3, 0.5, 2.0

Rivers are wider and have small meanders and irregular riverbanks. The terrain has also been made steeper. I'll take a screenshot tomorrow.

[paramat]

No rush, you have until 0.4.15 to experiment.

EDIT I got this: