Game Fixing/Enhancing

[Vazon]

Ok I have posted this in the mesecons topic, but I have decided to make it's own topic.

At the moment with all that Minetest is, I think adding any form of a big of change to the game would not be one of the greatest changes we have made to the game. Furthermore, the game its self just needs to stop having new features added it and fix what is already currently in the game. Current versions of Minetest cant even run on the most descent computers, I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2014 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous ( Heck, I can play MineCraft better than I can play Minetest on this computer ). So until Minetest is fast enough to run decently on even the most basic computers I think new features added to the game should be limited this includeds mods like Mesecons. And another thing, I don't think Minetest using a rendering engine is not smart and is not helping speed at all. Why are we not using a gaming engine, Just WHY!?!?!?

I'm not talking about my personal problems ( Those I can deal with on my own plus I was just giving an example ), I'm trying to address for anyone who is new just trying to find a new game to play. Most people who play games will not play a game that lags the first time they play it, they are more than likely to just leave. Game play is important to people, if the game doesn't play very well on there current set up they are more likely to quit. Wouldn't you??

[rubenwardy]

Here is what Calinou wrote in the other topic:

There are currently known performance problems with 0.4.10 and Git versions of Minetest on Windows, which seem to happen on all builds, official and unofficial, 32 bits and 64 bits.

Irrlicht is a lightweight graphics engine – which is fine for games (which can be better than a big thing like OGRE). Using a dedicated gaming engine is not necessarily faster.

Minecraft isn't that slow these days (1.8, as far as I know, strongly improved rendering performance), it isn't uncommon to see people with more FPS in Minecraft than in Minetest. Lastly, you don't need a $ 2000 computer at all unless it is part of your work (eg. you're doing GPU computing).

On topic, I'm against merging Mesecons because most people don't use it. The upside, compared to inclusion of mobs, is that players on servers have the choice – if Mesecons is installed, you can choose not to use it, but you often can't choose to avoid mobs on servers.

[Sokomine]

I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2014 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla. Minetest needs to be play able with out people having to go out and buy a $2000-$4000 computer, its just outrageous

Perhaps that's your error: Your computer might be too new/too expensive. Minetest is known to perform very well on old hardware. It - the same code that runs on the desktop - even performs pretty well on Android devices, although view range and resolution are limited on those. The processing power such a phone or tablet may provide is significantly lower than even a very cheap modern desktop.

If you're using Linux, it might well be that your components are too new and not yet fully supported by the drivers for your hardware.

[Amaz]

Just out of my personal experience:

I am currently running a (smallish) minetest server, with a few mods, and I can easily play Minetest on the same machine that the server is, at pretty good fps. (Around 30, which is my avarage.) My cpu usage goes up to 25% at the very most, ram can go up to 1.5GB (But this is with quite a few programs open, Chromium, LibreOffice, HexChat, and a couple of other bits) and to put things bluntly, my computer is not very good. It cost (iirc) £150-200, and has 2GB of ram, and a >2GHz cpu. But I can still play Minetest smoothly, while hosting a server, and I don't get too much lag with reasonable sub-games.

Oh, and I have been known to do all of the above while having make -j3 running in the background... But amazingly, still no lag! (With 3 being the most my cpu supports.)

[rubenwardy]

I run kubuntu 14.04 on a desktop computer. I get between 35 - 55 FPS. About 5 years old.

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copied from $ phoronix-test-suite system-info

Product: Compaq Presario CQ5226UK
Processor: Intel Pentium E5300 @ 2.60GHz (2 Cores), Motherboard: FOXCONN ETON v1.0, Chipset: Intel 4 DRAM + ICH7, Memory: 4096MB, Disk: 320GB Seagate ST3320418AS + 32GB Cruzer Blade, Graphics: Intel 4 IGP, Audio: Realtek ALC662 rev1, Network: Realtek RTL8101E/RTL8102E
OS: Ubuntu 14.04, Kernel: 3.13.0-37-generic (x86_64), Desktop: KDE 4.13.3, Display Server: X Server 1.15.1, Display Driver: intel 2.99.910, Compiler: GCC 4.8, File-System: ext4, Screen Resolution: 1366x768


[Krock]

I run windows xp on a desktop computer. I get between 15 - 20 FPS. Unknown age. The BIOS version is from year 2006.

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product: Aspire SA80/AP S280
Processor: Intel Celeron D 346 @ 3.06GHz (1 Core), Motherboard: Acer E661GXM, Chipset: SiS 661GX (North Bridge), Memory: 2048MB, Graphics: Gigabyte GeForce 6600 GT AGP, Desktop: explorer.exe, Display Driver: nv4_disp 6.14.13.0783 - nVIDIA Detonator 7.83


[Evergreen]

I run Kubuntu 14.04 on a desktop computer. I get between 40-60FPS. It is about 6 months old.

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copied from $ phoronix-test-suite system-info

Hardware:
Processor: AMD FX-4300 @ 3.80GHz (4 Cores), Motherboard: ASUS M5A78L-M/USB3, Chipset: AMD RS780 + SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0, Memory: 4096MB, Disk: 500GB Seagate ST500DM002-1BD14, Graphics: XFX AMD Radeon HD 7700 1024MB, Audio: VIA VT1708S, Monitor: DEL 1908FPBLK + DEL 1908FPBLK, Network: Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411

Software:
OS: Ubuntu 14.04, Kernel: 3.13.0-35-generic (x86_64), Desktop: KDE 4.13.3, Display Server: X Server 1.15.1, Display Driver: fglrx 13.35.5, OpenGL: 4.3.12798, Compiler: GCC 4.8, File-System: ext4, Screen Resolution: 1280x1024


(I will post my laptop's performace later)

[Jordach]

My framerate locked: 64fps
My framerate unlocked: 320fps

Performance under Minetest Game: 0.017 internal ping.
Performance under BFD: 0.019 internal ping.

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Motherboard Manufacturer: MSI
Motherboard Model: MS-7721
CPU: AMD A10-6800K APU with Radeon HD Graphics @ 4.1GHz.
Display Adapter: AMD Radeon HD 8670D
Networking: Realtek PCIe GBE Ethernet
Monitor 1: Packard Bell Viseo223DX (1920x1080)
Monitor 2: LM-1704 (1280x1024)
Disk C:\ WDC WD20 2TB
Disk D:\ WDC WD20 2TB
Operating System: Windows 7 Ultimate x64


[ExeterDad]

So Vazon, you've stuck to your guns insisting there's no issue with your setup or drivers, only blaming Minetest alone for the poor performance. Care to share a bit of data so we can try to help you? What are your specs? Simply stating you spent 800 means nothing. What fps are you getting? How many mods? How many other things are busy in the backgound? Is there a anti virus scan going on? Be fair and play nice if you would like positive responses from your peers.

[rubenwardy]

If we know your specs we could work out the bottleneck.

[Vazon]

Vazon head desks! Since the very first post you guys are insisting that there is something wrong with MY computer I directly said that I'm not talking about my problems, they are my problems and I can deal with its :| but I am trying to address a basic speed problem with Minetest in general.

So Vazon, ........ Be fair and play nice if you would like positive responses from your peers.

Just wondering( not being mean here ), but did you even read the WHOLE first post??? I said im not talking about my problems. And now everyone is posting there computer specs and that isn't helping anyone, just because you guys get good/great speed on Minetest does not mean the other 500-600 people do, this topic is starting to seem one sided and is helping no one. Everyone needs to look at how others are experiencing the game not just how you or your neighbor are experiencing it.

[4aiman]

Do you realize that you're the only one complaining here? Isn't that the very fact supposed to help you realize it is your problem?

It doesn't matter whether you think it's not your problem whereas it is. So far there's no even a single proof it's not your problem.

I've already told you @ mesecons about 4 people on Acer Aspire One. In fact, even for Minecraft hosts have a plan with 1Gb RAM and 1GHz dedicated CPU. So, no it's surprise that Minetest runs well on a better HW.

Or maybe you're on 0.4.1 or something? Then update, 'cause it was really slow! :)

Anyway, what do you expect of us?

To believe you have issues with MT? - We never told you didn't. In fact it is you who insists on the contrary.
To start fixin' something? - What are we supposed to fix, when it is you and only you who experience them? (amongst participants of this and mesecons threads)

Give us some real info, help us to "repeat" the behavior you've described. Any bug should be confirmed before fixing. Give us a single screen shot with low fps, or make a video, so we can see you're not trolling us.

Until then there won't be any help from anyone...

WAIT A SEC!
I know to whom you need to speak!

Inocudom.

He's been claiming MT and especially FM makes his PC to "rev like a jet engine".
Well, I can't remember where and when did he not complain on anything that seemed fit...
There were winter, summer, FM, lags, my attitude, other people's attitude...

Anyway, ask him - he's more than ready to answer when it comes to issues. In fact, he's the one to report them first @freeminer.org.

[Vazon]

Do you realize that you're the only one complaining here? Isn't that the very fact supposed to help you realize it is your problem?

It doesn't matter whether you think it's not your problem whereas it is. So far there's no even a single proof it's not your problem.

I've already told you @ mesecons about 4 people on Acer Aspire One. In fact, even for Minecraft hosts have a plan with 1Gb RAM and 1GHz dedicated CPU. So, no it's surprise that Minetest runs well on a better HW.

Or maybe you're on 0.4.1 or something? Then update, 'cause it was really slow! :)

Anyway, what do you expect of us?

To believe you have issues with MT? - We never told you didn't. In fact it is you who insists on the contrary.
To start fixin' something? - What are we supposed to fix, when it is you and only who experience them? (amongst participants of this and mesecons threads)

Give us some real info, help us to "repeat" the behavior you've described. Any bug should be confirmed before fixing. Give us a single screen shot with low fps, or make a video, so we can see you're not trolling us.

Until then there won't be any help from anyone...

WAIT A SEC!
I know to whom you need to speak!

Inocudom.

He's been claiming MT and especially FM makes his PC to "rev like a jet engine".
[s]Well, I can't remember where and when did he not complain on anything that seemed fit...
There were winter, summer, FM, lags, my attitude, other people's attitude...[/s]

Anyway, ask him - he's more than ready to answer when it comes to issues. In fact, he's the one to report them first @freeminer.org.

Yes, I'm well aware of this. At least he is one of the few to admit things aren't perfect, most people talking seem to think nothing is wrong with Minetest but everything has room for improvement, but like always everyone here is bull headed and seem to fight any outside ideas. That is why I have been around over a year and am always on the forums yet post very little, no one around is up for outside ideas and it is hindering Minetest extremely.

Also On the jet engine topic, I have heard that from MANY people I personally have not had happen on the desktop but on my laptop and it burned up my fan after abuse.

Another thing, THIS IS NOT MY PROBLEM!!! I have not directly said I have massive lag or anything with Minetest I just stated it could be much faster than it currently is, I can play Minetest with a 30-45 FPS fluctuation with lag bursts about ever 5 to 10 min that sets my fps to about 8-15 ( <--- there is where I have problems ) but I can play MineCraft 1.4.7 <--- quite laggy version but I can play that if I have my settings to where they should be with 100-200 FPS on a good day, bad day 80-120.

[Vazon]

Bump: I use 0.4.10 not 0.4.1 -.- and I ment to say 15 to 20 min *

[rubenwardy]

There is a lot of room for improvement in Minetest. We should aim to speed it up so it runs at >50 fps on most computers that have more than one core and are under 6 years old. That is a hard bench mark to measure though, unless you add anonymous statistic gathering to Minetest. (Must be opt-in)

[ExeterDad]

Just wondering( not being mean here ), but did you even read the WHOLE first post??? I said im not talking about my problems.

I "thought" I read your whole post. Perhaps we assumed you really were having problems because we "thought" this bit implied it?

Current versions of Minetest cant even run on the most descent computers, I have a new $800 computer ( new as of January 15, 2014 ) and I have problems running Minetest even on vanilla.

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees MT DOES have performance issues and weaknesses, even the devs themselves (a whopping 11 of them) are seen in the irc logs admitting and trying like heck to resolve this a bit at a time. If you follow the logs, you will see many of these cool features are bonus, as they are cherry picking them and implementing them as they DO improve performance.

[Jordach]

There is a lot of room for improvement in Minetest. We should aim to speed it up so it runs at >50 fps on most computers that have more than one core and are under 6 years old. That is a hard bench mark to measure though, unless you add anonymous statistic gathering to Minetest. (Must be opt-in)

Last generation Pentium 4s will happily beat that on the IGP, which runs it at 40-50fps.

Add in an AGP card for at least 55+fps.

[4aiman]

Can't say the same 'bout 1500-2000s IGAs. 35-40 fps. Strangely, ogles1 renderer improved that to nearly 55. But It have problems with shaders, minetest.inventory_cube() and semi-transparent sprites in the inventory. Also it makes screen shots in inverted colours while saves the lighting, e.g. red is blue, blue is yellow but black is still black.

@Vazon: It's not like people are suppered or anything. Read my posts from the late 2012 and you'll see I've complied a lot. Same goes with many old members.
Inocudom, in turn, seems to be rather pessimistic and tends to state the inevitable problems rather than asking how to fix current issues. It's not like he's the only one who admits some problem, but he tends to making an alligator out of mosquito.

My point is, minetest_game can't satisfy everyone. It's neither complete nor polished. Like Xyz and many other ppl say - "it's much more interesting to introduce a new feature than to fix or perform refactoring."

Personally I focused myself on my own game, where I and only I determine what to include an what to fix. BFD is another example of the likewise attitude. (Or maybe I'm wrong here.)

But, if you want to fix minetest_game, then it's better to come up with your changes, make pull requests and then start to discuss\blame\point out the problems. If you're able to fix at least some problems, I think you'll be welcomed. Since you've started the whole case, obviously, you understand the difference between a fix and an improvement.
You may say you can't - due to the lack of knowledge or having no time... Bu the thing is, those who can't are usually the ones who ask to improve things. But when they become able to do smth - they usually begin to implement their own mods and games.

Blockman may find this offensive - he's quite a hypochondriac and an irritable person - but I'm going to say it anyway. He is amongst those who really tried to fix\improve the default game and the engine. And he did improved a lot. Or so it seemed. Improvements were incomplete. Due to various reasons.
For instance, his Better HUD & hunger mod is a well-done mod which not only visualize the features that were there already, but also adds hunger! And it looks like it's a great mod.
But that's on the surface only. His hunger has nothing to do with the hunger itself. There's just no place for food exhaustion caused by the player's activity.
He may say that such behavior was never planned, that his mod has nothing to do with logic or real life experiences, that it was based upon some dungeon crawler etc, etc.
Same goes with the 3rd-person view.
Same goes (although that was made by a different person, IIRC) with the new physics which is based upon hardcoded magic numbers.
But the truth is, it's very difficult to fix smth that is in the center of everyone's attention. There be people like me, who despise the changes have been made due to their incompleteness. I've made my own hunger mod, which utilizes action-based exhaustion. Does anyone use that? IDK. I know of nobody who does. So, instead of trying to play along, I just decided to make my own game with chess and poetesses. (Yep, I've just gave a legal reason to punish me a bit.)

Also, why those people who have troubles didn't say anything? Maybe we need some bug tracker to encourage everyone? Anonymous in-built statistics collection is a good feature too. Of course it should be optional whether to participate or not.
Right now your friends\acquaintances behave like most of the Russians - they know it's wrong, but keep silence. For various reasons.

@ all:
Since Vazon clarified he just wanted more and I (amongst the others) have misread his messages, maybe we start talking 'bout WHAT to improve?

FPS is a milestone.

But what about the "polish" point?

[Vazon]

Can't say the same 'bout 1500-2000s IGAs. 35-40 fps. Strangely, ogles1 renderer improved that to nearly 55. But It have problems with shaders, minetest.inventory_cube() and semi-transparent sprites in the inventory. Also it makes screen shots in inverted colours while saves the lighting, e.g. red is blue, blue is yellow but black is still black.

@Vazon: It's not like people are suppered or anything. Read my posts from the late 2012 and you'll see I've complied a lot. Same goes with many old members.
Inocudom, in turn, seems to be rather pessimistic and tends to state the inevitable problems rather than asking how to fix current issues. It's not like he's the only one who admits some problem, but he tends to making an alligator out of mosquito.

My point is, minetest_game can't satisfy everyone. It's neither complete nor polished. Like Xyz and many other ppl say - "it's much more interesting to introduce a new feature than to fix or perform refactoring."

Personally I focused myself on my own game, where I and only I determine what to include an what to fix. BFD is another example of the likewise attitude. (Or maybe I'm wrong here.)

But, if you want to fix minetest_game, then it's better to come up with your changes, make pull requests and then start to discuss\blame\point out the problems. If you're able to fix at least some problems, I think you'll be welcomed. Since you've started the whole case, obviously, you understand the difference between a fix and an improvement.
You may say you can't - due to the lack of knowledge or having no time... Bu the thing is, those who can't are usually the ones who ask to improve things. But when they become able to do smth - they usually begin to implement their own mods and games.

Blockman may find this offensive - he's quite a hypochondriac and an irritable person - but I'm going to say it anyway. He is amongst those who really tried to fix\improve the default game and the engine. And he did improved a lot. Or so it seemed. Improvements were incomplete. Due to various reasons.
For instance, his Better HUD & hunger mod is a well-done mod which not only visualize the features that were there already, but also adds hunger! And it looks like it's a great mod.
But that's on the surface only. His hunger has nothing to do with the hunger itself. There's just no place for food exhaustion caused by the player's activity.
He may say that such behavior was never planned, that his mod has nothing to do with logic or real life experiences, that it was based upon some dungeon crawler etc, etc.
Same goes with the 3rd-person view.
Same goes (although that was made by a different person, IIRC) with the new physics which is based upon hardcoded magic numbers.
But the truth is, it's very difficult to fix smth that is in the center of everyone's attention. There be people like me, who despise the changes have been made due to their incompleteness. I've made my own hunger mod, which utilizes action-based exhaustion. Does anyone use that? IDK. I know of nobody who does. So, instead of trying to play along, I just decided to make my own game with chess and poetesses. (Yep, I've just gave a legal reason to punish me a bit.)

Also, why those people who have troubles didn't say anything? Maybe we need some bug tracker to encourage everyone? Anonymous in-built statistics collection is a good feature too. Of course it should be optional whether to participate or not.
Right now your friends\acquaintances behave like most of the Russians - they know it's wrong, but keep silence. For various reasons.

@ all:
Since Vazon clarified he just wanted more and I (amongst the others) have misread his messages, maybe we start talking 'bout WHAT to improve?

FPS is a milestone.

But what about the "polish" point?

I must apologize for getting quite irritated. Being told the same thing over and over again was very annoying. And yes I realized last night that my first topic was most likely being misread by everyone so sorry for that.

Ok on topic.

Like Xyz and many other ppl say - "it's much more interesting to introduce a new feature than to fix or perform refactoring."

Indeed to add new features is something that everyone looks forward to in the updates and I'm not saying stopping adding such things but most times on the updates we get a lot of new "small" things. Something we can do is add a handful of "big" new features( This is keep the players happy while not adding a crap ton of stuff that may need to be tuned up or even complete rewritten in the future ) and the rest can be used to tune up the game for better FPS and gameplay ( speed up that pesky mapgen that from time to time decides it doesn't want you going past that point ). Gameplay and FPS more or less go hand in hand, if you have a game that the speed that is great but it looks like the game was made by a 3 year old or if you have a good/great gameplay but not so good in the speed area, most people don't stick around. I we fall in the area of decent gameplay ( I think will be ten times better once v5 mapgen is complete) and an no so good/ok area in speed. From what 4aiman has said it seems incompleteness mostly isn't helping in speed at all.

All in all 4aiman is correct we need to turn our focus to

maybe we start talking 'bout WHAT to improve?

[rubenwardy]

About polish:

The user interface of Minetest annoys me, particularly the main menu. The text on the main menu glitches. Also, it doesn't look very nice.

Bugs are also bad in terms of polish.

I have been doing pull requests recently based around fixing the user interface and user friendliness of Minetest.

[Vazon]

About polish:

The user interface of Minetest annoys me, particularly the main menu. The text on the main menu glitches. Also, it doesn't look very nice.

Bugs are also bad in terms of polish.

I have been doing pull requests recently based around fixing the user interface and user friendliness of Minetest.

Hrm, the main menu is dull indeed, but what exactly is wrong with the user interface?? ( this is the first time hearing of a problem here )

[rubenwardy]

Only set the camera update keymap when using a debug build
Add notice when only minimal is installed
Add name of node pointed at to debug

The main menu, mainly.

[Vazon]

ok, I see now. Very usefull, on the Add name of node pointed at to debug, I would like to point out that all that debug at times can be impossible to see very well because it is so small same goes for chat. If that stuff was just a tad bigger I think it would make a big difference but then we run into the problem of the screen being cluttered. So I am not quite sure if there a positive solution to the text being a bit small.

very nice touch, Ruben.

[Sokomine]

So I am not quite sure if there a positive solution to the text being a bit small.

I'm using the following in order to get readable text in chat:

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

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font_path = fonts/liberationsans.ttf
font_size = 18
mono_font_path = fonts/liberationmono.ttf
mono_font_size = 18
freetype = true


[Sol]

I'm personally using DroidSans :)

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.

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freetype = true
font_path = /usr/share/fonts/truetype/droid/DroidSans.ttf
mono_font_path = /usr/share/fonts/truetype/droid/DroidSansMono.ttf
font_size = 17
mono_font_size = 17

[Vazon]

Ok, so it seems to be a way to change size and type for everyone do it by hand. Then I think a simple solution would be to maybe add a setting for it???? So everyone can set it to there own personal touch to it and maybe also let them choose the color of there chat and other peoples chat on there side, that would give chat a bit of pick me up and make it look better and it would get peoples attention. Some people seem to forget chat is there ( including me ) because it doesn't pop out when something changes.

[gamergardencat]

My machine is 2 years old under $600 runs everything new still great. Only I would like to see the compass mod fixed when I click on the door it closes jit. Minetest runs fine with 30+ mods running even while I am recording video. I would like to see though the game take advantage of 4 cores and the gpu. Unfortunately the game engine doesn't use something modern like pygame. Light weight something means no easy path to multithreading. Yes liberationsans and DroidSansMono fonts are very good choices there are tons of fonts out there to chose from including Tomaha and Macaroni And Cheese. Besides, I haven't seen v5 mapgen in ages. Looking at the cpu usage history for core #1 and I expected usage to max out while the map is generating. Instead it went down. The line was like \. That is great news since that means there is a lot of margins to generate lots of interesting things. This is with fly mode, run, 20 mods or so including mobs. FPS rarely goes down to 25 and stays somewhere around 35 and 63. Normal for all 3d games I have played since at least 1999.

[ysrd]

Guys, a lot of us run the game with no problems most of the time. We load the mods we want and a lot of us run on not the best hardware and it works just fine for us. But remember this is 0.4.x code. There are bugs and if someone is set up bad or has that one particular weird setup that ghives problems or loads every mod in the universe on at once they will have problems.
Even people who normally would have no problems with the game. Maybe he's using Windows 8 or has a vitruis scanner (apparently they need those with windows...) and if you are using Mcaffee AV and any game (Minecraft would be worse as it is Java but I am not sure how many files lua touches) then well nothing works well and it gives you stallouts every 10 to 15 minutes.
Or a combination of the above.
I doubt that minetest has a rigorous release management system with multi-level testing and sign-off like the paid games should. It's a community effort and like every open source effort it works for the people who make it and that is the core audience. We are very greatful that they shared with us and let us give back.
Part of that giving back is reporting bugs. This helps people fix the game. But a bug report that cannot be recreated as written is not as helpful as the reporter may think it is. I have read a lot of bug reports in my day job. The best ones come with stack dumps and a list of the exact steps required to create the problem and specs of the system having the problem. Ok ones at least specify what the issue is in terms that are liek when I have all of these mods installed and I am doing these things with these settings (if you are using the default setting say that.)
Knowing alot of other people having the same problem (speed?) but all the devs with older systems are not having the same problem doesn't help unless you tell them more details in a way they can reporduce the error.
We have had to go get customers PCs to test with because they were unable to articulate the problem in a way we could reproduce the error. I doubt the minetest devs can do that.
Anyway I am still trying to figure out why I glitch through floors still. (Always /sethome when you start a new world and reset it once your house is built. (Until you get a compass or somethign that can telelport you.))

[Dragonop]

If I where a dev, I will wait to the 1.0 version to add this kind of stuff