Infinite world size

[srifqi]

the current codes 2^15 limit?

2^16 (65536), remember the negative

[Calinou]

I do have code that should make the world infinite, however, there are still a lot of limitations:
-> probably overwritten mapblocks by other ones (didn't check this one though)
-> you still can't go further than 214748 because of the way floats are sent (a 32 bit integer)
-> horrible code
-> probably other things
-> and it is outdated

Anyway, if you want to give it a try: https://github.com/Novatux/minetest/tree/unlimited-map

This works, but collision stops working after ±32768. If you fall past that limit, the game will freeze, using all CPU and taking RAM increasingly. Frequent flickers of the world also happen.

Thus, only a few blocks are really available, this still adds 1856 blocks, which is 6 % more, in each direction.

[Tedypig]

I just read this whole topic and the smartest thing said was Kilarin's post on page 2, 3rd post down. If it would take that long to just WALK (NO hitting mapgen "walls", NO stoping and looking, NO mining, NO building NO NOTHING EXCEPT WALKING!!!) Why the fuck do you idiots need or even want a bigger map? That is also just the surface, if you tak into account the actual number of changeable nodes in the game (including replacing air with something) It is as close to infinate as we could ever need. 15 fucking years to walk the whole map. If you all want a Minecrap like map then fucking go play Minecrap. I for one suggested SMALLER maps, because there's no need for something so big. This game is free, just fucking play the game and have fun. Don't be a whiney little baby because "theres and edge", or "I can't walk in a straight line for more than 3 hours". Honestly, if you need to walk for more than 3 hours, you have no life (and this is coming from someone that actually has no life). Another thing I saw was, "You need to add mods to make it playable" So fucking what?? Minecrap has a ton of mods also. Every little fucking thing you see in that game, came from a mod originally, the monsters, the nodes, everything! I had creepers and zombies on my Minecrap Classic server, how? MODS! Grow the fuck up people. The map is plenty big, (too big in my opinion) mods make different servers different, just like on your Minecrap game. Again, if you want another game, go play that game. Don't expect this one to change for you and you alone. Honestly, if this game becomes much more like Minecrap, I will find another game to play, just like if this ever goes pay like Minecrap.

#Endrant

[drkwv]

I just read this whole topic

And I already explained why people want more space. The smartest idea was about transforming map into a cube with gravity. Probably you can't into reading and understanding so try something else like going to the war and become a hero (all girls will be yours).

[rubenwardy]

It is mostly just bragging rights. Don't you want to say 'the maps in Minetest are bigger than in Minecraft'?

Also, bigger maps are needed in order to create real life things, such as a whole country from height map data.

But that is about it. We currently have the bragging right of unlimited in all directions, which is good for a mining game. I suggest we make more use of this, in gameplay. Vertical biomes? Like different types of stone and caverns.

[paramat]

Personally i found the idea of larger or edge-wrapping worlds boring, it's much more interesting to have an edge which is reachable in a reasonable length of time, just think how much time we save compared to a Minecraft long term mission to the farlands. If there was an edge much further away i wouldn't even bother trying to travel to it. As you can see Nore has tried to create a larger world and Calinou has tested and demonstrated it is impractical. Some people 'want' a larger world without actually 'needing' it. Some of these ideas can be done in a lua mapgen that slices up our huge vertical space, combined with teleportation. Other than that it looks like a larger world is only possible with a huge rewrite of the engine, no-one can be bothered for such a non-existant need. Minetest's own mapgen dev has commented on this topic on IRC and his attitude is very similar to this.

[HeroOfTheWinds]

But that is about it. We currently have the bragging right of unlimited in all directions, which is good for a mining game. I suggest we make more use of this, in gameplay. Vertical biomes? Like different types of stone and caverns.

I think we can safely say that modders like paramat and I have been trying to remedy this a bit with some mods like fracture, floatindev, SkyLands, subterrain, and CaveRealms. :) Not to mention some of the other mods that wouldn't mind a revival, such as PilzAdam's nether mod or the nyan cat heaven mod. (I actually am trying to implement a heaven of sorts in SkyLands right now.)

I also agree with paramat on all but one point: while I'm not thirsty for edge-wrapping worlds, I'm not against them either. I'm actually quite tempted to try making a "farlands" style mod that includes edge wrapping, but I have no idea when I would get around to it. I'm barely keeping up with the mods I'm already working on. :P

[aldobr]

What about server roaming ?

IE.: when you hit the limit of current game world you are automatically reconnected into another server...

[SegFault22]

Any "wrap around" that would be implemented should work seamlessly. Instead of teleporting a player to the other side of the world when they reach the edge, or any other cheap tricks, the client should load the chunks of the other side of the world as if they are adjacent to the edge. This might be difficult to do, but it will most definitely be worth it.
The reason for wanting a larger world, is that there needs to be more diverse (and larger) surface features available for players to explore and build upon. When the world is bigger than what could rationally be used, one can go far out and discover much more than what can ever be packed into a small world. That way, you never really know what is "out there", and there always exists interest in finding new, awesome places to build at. This would also have the effect of helping servers keep players from getting bored and quitting.

[aldobr]

ChunkX = ChunkX mod MaxChunkX (make it so that chunkx is a variable of a type that can assume values bigger than maxchunkx)

[Tedypig]

Don't you want to say 'the maps in Minetest are bigger than in Minecraft'?.

No, I don't care if I can say that! This is not Minecraft, so I'm not going to compare the two. This is Minetest. I love the game how it is (well, WAS before 0.4.9). If you don't, go play (and PAY FOR) Minecraft... Have fun, I won't stop you. Hell, you can even go the way of Freeminer, Mosstest, WorldCraft, and the like 50 more out there and make your own clone. Just don't expect Minetest to turn into Minecraft (or the others, for that matter), Some people came here to get away from Minecraft. Some people don't want to play Minecraft. Some people want to play and enjoy Minetest, the way it is. If you don't, the exit is just an X click away in your top left corner. Have fun.

[rubenwardy]

Err, what? I am saying that it would become another way in which this game is better than Minecraft. I don't want to buy it, and I don't want Minetest to turn into it. I want Minetest to be better than it.

[Kilarin]

I've got a question.
I wonder what is the largest area explored on any minetest map? I would assume it would probably be on a multiplayer map. Would some of the admins of the multiplayer servers be willing to post what percentage of their current maps are actually explored?

It seems to me that this information would go a long way towards answering the question about whether we really need bigger worlds in minetest. Are there ANY maps out there that are anywhere near to exploring all of the area, of even just the surface? I'll be surprised if we have any maps that have gotten even to 50% of the surface explored. Very surprised.

[rubenwardy]

Redcrab's server is over 6gb in size.

[Calinou]

I presume we could gain about 6 % in all directions by increasing map generation limit. This way, we'd have worlds of up to about 32768 blocks in all directions.

Not that much, but it's worth trying.

[emugod]

I presume we could gain about 6 % in all directions by increasing map generation limit. This way, we'd have worlds of up to about 32768 blocks in all directions.

Not that much, but it's worth trying.

the current code has an arbitrary limit of 31000 (defined in constants.h, very easy to change), as a lazy workaround to the proper/true limit of 32768 minus rendering view distance, which would be kind of an annoying thing to implement due to variable view distnaces, or even undesirable for that same reason (having player graphical choices affect server logic). I don't know if there is somewhere else a hard rendering view distance limit of 1768 to complement this (I doubt it)? perhaps something like that could be implemented, with a far smaller number, probably (some hundreds of blocks?) and gain a thousand and change blocks back that way.

I still feel that larger/'infinite' world size is a worthy goal to be pursued. Using the 'slicing' Kilarin talked about on page 3 would let us make much better use of the 64k limit, and definitely push away any practical concerns (at present, at least), but we should always be looking ahead.

I'll be surprised if we have any maps that have gotten even to 50% of the surface explored. Very surprised.

This might be correct, at present, but its really a sad commentary on mintests lack of players. I don't think I've ever seen more than 100-200 or so active players, from the public server list, and all spread over many servers. A single server with that many regular active players would get most of the surface exposed in relatively short order, I imagine.

And actually I have a somewhat question, if anyone might know the answer to it (otherwise I'll repost it later somewhere more likely); I've seen reference to servers using mods to limit world size even further, to keep the wolrd filesize down. How is this done? A custom LUA mapgen, that turns everything to air past the desired limit (in which case afaik blocks could/would still be generated and take up some space, if significantly less)? Or is there some way for this to be set to override the constants.h value (I didn't see any apparent such mechanism, in my glances at the code).

[Calinou]

This might be correct, at present, but its really a sad commentary on mintests lack of players. I don't think I've ever seen more than 100-200 or so active players, from the public server list, and all spread over many servers. A single server with that many regular active players would get most of the surface exposed in relatively short order, I imagine.

What we need is quality players, not kids using illegal mobile clients (oh, connect to the “just test” server to see how it is). In this case, we'll never ever reach 40 on a single server.

[drkwv]

Do someone tried to implement gravity approach already? I doubt if I have enough skills and time to create such mod.

[paramat]

Multi direction gravity would be a major engine rewrite, so that's probably not going to happen.

[rubenwardy]

From what I understand of the code, it would mostly be client side. The server would need to send gravity spots and do player rotation differently. It wouldn't be a rewrite of the engine, just a rewrite of several classes. I talked about this with pa about a year ago.

[thetoon]

From what I understand of the code, it would mostly be client side. The server would need to send gravity spots and do player rotation differently. It wouldn't be a rewrite of the engine, just a rewrite of several classes. I talked about this with pa about a year ago.

I guess we would need better entities management (esp. when it comes to rotation) before, wouldn't we?

[rubenwardy]

Better entity rotation is a requisite of better player rotation, as players are just special entities.

[digitalmouse]

not sure if "infinite world size" is a necessary solution, as the current map size (64 square kilometers, if I understand correctly?) is often under-utilized - in all directions. as alluded to by other members in this post, I think it comes down to getting good quality, creative, players, as opposed to spawn-point camping lazy buggers who whine if the have to walk/fly a few kilometers in world to get somewhere to build. on my little Pi server I've already had a request for a monorail/train system so that one guy can get to the edge of the world quickly...as if teleport was too hard to type. :P

what about... connecting worlds directly together? as you reach the edge of one map, you enter through a connecting 'portal' or 'border control point' that warps/teleports/passes you through to a map on that border? could have a series of these spread along a border, in co-operation with another person's server. might even be able to give the illusion of a continuous world by providing just enough data to 'see' across the border - maybe up to whatever the standard fog-of-war distance is, but no farther. player has to cross the border at the control-point/checkpoint/portal to keep going.

neat additional trick would be to get players inventory to be carried along with them (although I can see that getting abused or creating other headaches).

[RHR]

(64 km)² is NOT 64 km²
=> 64² km² = 4096 km² !!!
Compared with countries:
64 km² ~ Size of San Marino
4096 km² ~ Size of Cape Verde
4096 km² are 4.096x10^9 m² = same amount of blocks in one ! layer.
If you are placing one block per second you would need ~ 130 years to fill this one layer with pixel art if you are very fast without any beak :D

A solution of overcrowded spawn points could be alternating static spawn points. Always a few thousand blocks away form original spawn. Eyery server owner can already do that.

Connecting worlds together does not make much sence, because every server uses different mods and evan if possible, players would immediately abuse that system if they could keep their inventory on different servers.
IMO is the idea of stacked worlds in one world better (a stacked world of 2000 blocks should be more than deep enough to mine)

Compared with MC in Minetest player aren't forced to walk far away from spawn because every serious server has a protection mod and locked chests.

Of course if one day a Minetest server really hits it's limits we could try to find a solution for huger maps, but right now nobody has to rack one's brain about stuff that isn't a problem yet or in near future.

[drkwv]

4096km² is a square with 4'096'000m sides. Minetest square has 64'000m sides, so it's 64km², not 4096. Considering each block is 1 meter (as for me, visually it's 0,5m-0,6m so it's not 64km² but something around 32km²).

[rubenwardy]

Wow.

Area = Width * Height.
Area = 64km * 64km
Area = 4096km²

Don't confuse it with square kilometres (which is what the above post is doing), which is the side of a square with the same area. It is not an area, and has a unit of km not km².

[drkwv]

True. I was wrong about km². But anyway it goes out of considering that block is an equivalent of 1m which is not correct. Because if you'll take a measuring tape, slide it to 1m and put on the floor it would give you an image and feelings different from the same as if you look on the floor block side in game. I wonder if 195cm tall guys wouldn't feel the difference though (I'm 180). It would be weird if additional 15cm will make everything look so smaller.

[Sokomine]

But anyway it goes out of considering that block is an equivalent of 1m which is not correct. Because if you'll take a measuring tape, slide it to 1m and put on the floor it would give you an image and feelings different from the same as if you look on the floor block side in game. I wonder if 195cm tall guys wouldn't feel the difference though (I'm 180). It would be weird if additional 15cm will make everything look so smaller.

A block feels less than 1 m to me as well. I wonder why that is so. Viewing angel? Eye height? Could be that the player's eyes are more like 1.5 m above ground. Another misleading factor is that horizontal surfaces as found on blocks we use for tables, kitchens and the like are in reality more like ~70 cm in height. Also "walking" on stairs where each step is half a meter in height wouldn't be much fun.

[Krock]

@Sokomine, drkwv:
I changed the fov (field of view) to ~90, now it looks fine for me.
The stairs are not optimal and should be changed somewhen.

[drkwv]

Well, I changed fov to 90 but hasn't seen big difference. Stairs are ok. And even sizes ok too. No need for realism. It's just thoughts about sizes.