MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

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MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by Minetestforfun » Wed Sep 23, 2015 18:22

Hello,

This post aims at explaining why the collaboration between MinetestForFun team and 4aiman ended, and more generally why it is impossible to work with 4aiman.

Let's start rough, to incitate you to understand this message and to keep reading it : 4aiman is quite stubborn, self-centered, and immature. Let's add that he has no respect for others, and that he treated the developers' team (more than 10 persons) as slaves/morons.

So, this is the complete and detailed story that 4aiman would have wanted to hide forever. This post is made by the MinetestForFun developers team, we will try to be the more accurate and illustrative we can.

PERMISSION TO USE THE SUBGAME

On the 21th of August 2015, the MinetestForFun developers team agreed on the fact that we still had spare ressources on our dedicated server, and that we should help another developer working alone improving/finalize their subgame faster.

I (MinetestForFun/Darcidride) proposed consequently to 4aiman (main modder of Magichet) to open a public server, to help him finalize his subgame. All of this were purely volunteerism, and goes from a good intention, without any counterpart. Just remember that no other public server at the moment ran his subgame. (4aiman himself admitted to us that he never tests his code on a public server)

After some discussions on the 21st and 22nd of August 2015, 4aiman agreed to grant us permission to use his subgame (which is under both permissive and restricted licenses). We all agreed, everything was fine until then.

The server opened a week later (time needed to attribute ressources to it, to reffine some scripts/cronjobs, to add some important mods for us, and also prepare the GitHub repository).

SERVER OPENING

Once the server opened, bug/crash reports started pouring over us, about thirty at least, considering that the subgame basically crashed every five minutes with 1 to 3 players at best... With 30 issues, wich we ordered with labels, we assigned about twenty of them to 4aiman, because the bugs are from his game, and that it is logical that he should fix them. After all, our team was not dedicated to fixing those errors which emanate from "upstream".

Remember that we were only here to host his subgame, to help him debugging his game more easily, and improving it. We were not in any case there to work with 4aiman to code his subgame.

This is the point he apparently didn't understand, because he unassigned him from 17 of the issues, as "only 3" of them "interested him" (I'm quoting). Then he let us clearly understand that he didn't care about the other issues, implying that it was easy for us to read the code and fix them, and that we would have to fix that on our own. Did this young man really understand why we gave him ressources to host his subgame?

Secondly, after a talk within the developers' team of the server, we agreed to remove the russian translation of the items' description from our server only, removing it from our repository (version used on our server). We judged it legitimate, considering that less than 5% of our servers' visitors are russian (probably less, real numbers would be closer to 1% of the players) and that english is more prevalent than russian. Thus, we removed this superfluous translation, duplicate of the english one. (In game we had english + russian, we turned them into only english, and when we look at the russian population of the forum, we couldn't dismiss our analysis.)

Discovering it, 4aiman got angry, and started a very unpolite points/counter system, giving the unpleasant feeling of him taking us from high up. He told us we had only 2 points left, implying that after two other modifications he wouldn't like, he would forbid our fork (which is wrong, it's not a fork, it's just a version with some little mods adds for grant us for example the possibility to monitoring the server, anyway ). 4aiman answered us in a very dumb and mean way, arguing that russian is more spoken than english in Minetest, and that whatever would happen there would be a lot of russian players (arguments which was neither logical nor thoughtful).

So, I argued back, explaining him with logic and analyzes why russian doesn't have its legitimate need to be in an "international" subgame, proposing him solutions to add russian translations optionally.
I added, following those disagreeable words, that we were here volountareely, and that we were not his slaves, thus he needed to treat us in better way otherwise the server wouldn't last long.

Consequently to my second answer, trying to bring him back to reason, he decided to take another point, and told us that we only had one left, without any other argumentation.

CLOSURE OF THE SERVER

Here is the discussion, and the final moments. We can also see my final response, which will close our collaboration http://i.imgur.com/iEN7mrp.png (you can see at the top the logical and thoughtful answer that I sent and then, lower, his thoughtless one, and finally, my closure message at the bottom of the picture).

Because we closed the repository all of a sudden and from fear that he had not read our final message, I decided to send him in a PM, the following picture : http://i.imgur.com/Yi0x9Xh.png. Here is his answer, still stained with the same patronizing way of interacting : http://i.imgur.com/OfXMGDH.png
Here is my definitive response, after consultation of the team : http://i.imgur.com/wruCy9P.png.
The discussion is closed.

Finally, to prove us the full expansion of his mental maturity (again...), 4aiman, angry, sent me (MinetestForFun) private messages on freenode with random nicknames to insult me in both french and english (with doubtful and funny translations).

CONCLUSION

We hope to have done our best for everybody to understand 4aiman's state of mind, who, in our opinion, is an immature capricious child, imbued of himself.

SIGNATURES

Image
 

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Re: MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by Gael de Sailly » Fri Sep 25, 2015 21:57

(I prefer do not quote)

I agree with that, but I think that you go too far. You don't need to post it 3 times on the forum to close your collaboration.

The discussion is finished : I'm pretty sure that you both agree on the fact that you'll not reopen MFF-Magichet. So that would be better to ignore him than to continue a fruitless discussion on his mentality, justified or not.
Very busy this year too, so do not expect me to be very active on the forum or in game. But I'm not about to drop Minetest forever :)
 

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Re: MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by Minetestforfun » Sun Sep 27, 2015 20:49

Gael de Sailly wrote:(I prefer do not quote)

I agree with that, but I think that you go too far. You don't need to post it 3 times on the forum to close your collaboration.

The discussion is finished : I'm pretty sure that you both agree on the fact that you'll not reopen MFF-Magichet. So that would be better to ignore him than to continue a fruitless discussion on his mentality, justified or not.


The first topic if the french topic, in the french section, it's also our "base" for the english (collaborative) translation.

The initial second post was in the Magichet topic. But its place wasn't very justified in this topic. (we agreed)

So finally (and appropriately), we opened this topic in the "servers" forum section. (The problem is i can't Removed my post on the Magichet topic because this topic is now locked...)
 

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Re: MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by HulkSmashRocks » Tue Sep 29, 2015 04:25

Lemme get this straight... you volunteer to "help, improve, and fix" this person's subgame, as incentive for him to allow you to host his work publicly (something he probably would have done anyways). Then you even find the bugs in his subgame and build a list of them, but between 10 server devs you manage to 'assign' nearly all of them to this guy, whom is definitely not working for you in any way. Keep in mind that all of the previous work is his and he can choose to deal with aspects of the subgame as he chooses. Next you go and remove the Russian translation files (can your server box not handle those text files...?) on the premise that Russian is not an important language. And I am supposed to think French is a more important language than Russian or something? Why not remove FR from your servers, as EN is way more common... Besides, Russian being the head developers native language, don't you think it would be a little stupid to make his own subgame unintelligible for him to further work with? Finally, you and 10 others leave multiple scathing posts strewn around the forum like some war propaganda and are surprised and offended when the original developer asks "wtf"

Is this normal for MT? Get over it and go on with developing your stuff, as it appears he has continued to do throughout all of the bickering...
 

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Re: MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by Minetestforfun » Tue Sep 29, 2015 07:27

@HulkSmashRocks
"French is a more important language than Russian or something? Why not remove FR from your servers, as EN is way more common..."

--- --- --- --- ---

French and Russian aren't important.
On our servers, we keep the French translation for only one server (our main server and it's specified in the title/motd of the server), because it's a bilingual server which works with both French and English. (BUT, for your information, we removed many parts of our French translation on our main server because we feel it's not enough international...)

All of our other servers are ONLY in English, because it's better for international understanding.

So, NO the Russian or French isn't more important than the English and YES we removed more and more of our French translation on our main server.

Maybe try our server and feel our mentality, you will understand better why we prefer English translation only ;)
(I can add : maintain two languages requires more time, maintain a language you do not understand requires a LOT of time)

This is not a "war", 4aiman does similar things in the past but nobody speak about it in the forum. But you can definitely found many IRC messages about it. We just reveal our story for the eyes of all (because nobody do this on the forum earlier), and let people have their own opinion about that person.

You can have the opinion you want about our post, it's your right.

I take time to answer to you, but maybe i'm wrong and you just troll our community post ? (because you're apparently not informed of our work and why)
 

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Re: MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by Ferk » Tue Sep 29, 2015 09:07

Minetestforfun wrote:I take time to answer to you, but maybe i'm wrong and you just troll our community post ? (because you're apparently not informed of our work and why)

This kind of reaction doesn't speak much in your favor. Would you seriously consider anyone that doesn't know everything about your work a "troll"? If you didn't take the time to answer him it wouldn't have been possible for you to clarify your possition on languages for your server, or in which way does having extra languages is a bad thing. So it was in your interest to answer that perfectly valid argument, don't come pretending that you are acting just out of good faith by answering these points.

I agree 4aiman might have not behaved very mature (specially with that "point" system.....), but I'd say you should calm down as well. Don't resort to defaming and insults and reacting so defensive. Your mails also look kind of bossy with all the bold and the requests, he was not your slave as well, the way you are implying that he is a bad coder with the "3 years" thing is totally out of place... I'd guess he's just doing it in his free time anyway. He's not gonna implement something that he's not interested in, and that's normal for any project that is done for fun.

Just chill out, Minetest is for fun :P
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Re: MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by jp » Tue Sep 29, 2015 09:24

HulkSmashRocks wrote:on the premise that Russian is not an important language.

He (Minetestforfun) explicitely stated that in the context of his server, not over the world.

HulkSmashRocks wrote:And I am supposed to think French is a more important language than Russian or something?

Are we supposed to think that you're trying to corroborate (like many others does) the common stereotype that French are arrogant ? Seeing all those farfetched deductions, it seems so...

Besides, 2 messages on the forums and you already get into the hot discussions. Congrats.
 

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Re: MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by Ferk » Tue Sep 29, 2015 09:36

jp wrote:
HulkSmashRocks wrote:And I am supposed to think French is a more important language than Russian or something?

Are we supposed to think that you're trying to corroborate (like many others does) the common stereotype that French are arrogant ? Seeing all those farfetched deductions, it seems so...

I would have asked the same thing regardless of the country or language. Please lets not jump into accusations of racism or something. It's just that it seemed strange to want to remove an optional language and yet have one in the main server. But it would be perfectly normal to have a server in French if a significant part of the community for the main server is from France (imho, localized servers are a good thing because it can help with lag) and it's also fine after having given some explanation on why not do multilanguage: the fact that it makes it harder to maintain.

Though, this only makes sense if there are plans to actually include extra stuff that requires translation. Otherwise it'll be more troublesome to remove it because you have to maintain your own branch then and remove translations for every change (and if you are doing it all in the "master" branch it might be considered a fork, since you won't be able to submit pull requests from anything you add there anymore).

Btw, was the idea of making a Magichet server something that 4aiman requested from you? or was it an idea that you came up with and that you wanted to do? Maybe he wasn't that interested in an online server with his game to begin with, so it wouldn't make much sense to feel like you were his slaves, since you were just doing something you wanted that he didn't ask for. Like I said, it's ok for a developer that does something for fun to not want to implement things he might not be interested in. Particularly if he would still accept pull requests for that stuff, even if he isn't interested in implementing it himself.

I don't want to look like I'm playing devil's advocate and get half of the community against me though, since it seems you guys are a bit sensitive on the subject. So I probably won't continue answering this topic.
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Re: MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by Minetestforfun » Tue Sep 29, 2015 17:15

Ferk wrote:
Minetestforfun wrote:I take time to answer to you, but maybe i'm wrong and you just troll our community post ? (because you're apparently not informed of our work and why)

This kind of reaction doesn't speak much in your favor. Would you seriously consider anyone that doesn't know everything about your work a "troll"? If you didn't take the time to answer him it wouldn't have been possible for you to clarify your possition on languages for your server, or in which way does having extra languages is a bad thing. So it was in your interest to answer that perfectly valid argument, don't come pretending that you are acting just out of good faith by answering these points.


My english is far from perfect, so maybe my sentence is strange for you...

I don't say "troll" when peoples don't know our work and reply to a topic... my mind way :

1) HulkSmashRocks is blocked to the language problem we explained earlier, and he seems to be injured because we removed the Russian translation. But let me repeat, we don't removed the Russian translation because we are racist or dislike it, we removed it because a least 95%+ of the players just see "hieroglyph"...
2) HulkSmashRocks seems to think the priority for us is the French translation, it's wrong. Our priority is the international understanding and all of our other servers are in English. (i explained it in my latest post...)
3) HulkSmashRocks post 2 messages in the forum
4) He also says we denigrate Russian. In fact, we denigrate both Russian and French... Maybe he takes the Russian denigration in a personal way ?

So, my reasoning is "maybe a troll ?"

And you just come and say 'i say "troll" to anybody wich doesn't know our work'... This is nonsense... :/

(PS : hope you understand me better now :))
 

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Re: MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by blockybison » Wed Sep 30, 2015 00:35

Not trying to join the fight here, but @MinetestForFun: you had resources you wanted to dedicate to helping out a mod/subgame creator, and you chose the one subgame that had the most proprietary/ultra-restrictive/control-freaky licence. How the hell did you not see this coming from a mile away? The fact that you are shocked there was trouble is kind of amusing, really. I mean, the sentiment was great, but maybe next time try to support a FOSS project instead?
 

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Re: MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by Dragonop » Wed Sep 30, 2015 02:57

Agree with blockybison...
 

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Re: MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by HulkSmashRocks » Wed Sep 30, 2015 04:15

Hello all, I hope my earlier comment wasn't meant to be taken in an offensive way against either countries involved as it does not matter which languages/countries are involved but only that both were 'uncommon' languages (only in that EN is called 'common' or something... they're just mouth noises guise). Also that the one removed was the native language of the head developer, which might be justified leaving in out of respect for his awesomeness. I wasn't personally aware of that stereotype about French being arrogant... I've met cool French people and mean Russians. But also nice Russians... the Internet is planet Earth so get on.
Aside from that I still see someone who contributed little work to the subgame getting permission to run the only server with said subgame, or so I understand. That's fine. Then try to tell the head developer working on his own time what needs to be fixed first etc. Not surprised he said 'deal with it'. I'm sorry if I misunderstand things, I don't mean it against anyone in particular but I can't help but notice I've seen this a few times while lurking this forum (all different parties) and I was frustrated that there were less "dev" posts for me to read that day maybe :p

EDIT: I'm sorry I didn't realize the FR tag on the server list didn't mean what I thought. My personal view is that you should be able to local chat in any language you want... global chat should be a common language to prevent all sorts of fun. Even better would be to code a new chatbox system with tabs to allow channels for each language...
 

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Re: MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by Minetestforfun » Wed Sep 30, 2015 13:41

blockybison wrote:Not trying to join the fight here, but @MinetestForFun: you had resources you wanted to dedicate to helping out a mod/subgame creator, and you chose the one subgame that had the most proprietary/ultra-restrictive/control-freaky licence. How the hell did you not see this coming from a mile away? The fact that you are shocked there was trouble is kind of amusing, really. I mean, the sentiment was great, but maybe next time try to support a FOSS project instead?


I agreed with you...

Personally, i didn't understand clearly at the beginning the kind of person that was 4aiman... Many members of our dev team warm me about him, but... I thought, let him a chance...

About the FOOS
This is why we planned to open Adenture Test and UFORace/UFORun servers soon...

HulkSmashRocks wrote:Hello all, I hope my earlier comment wasn't meant to be taken in an offensive way against either countries involved as it does not matter which languages/countries are involved but only that both were 'uncommon' languages (only in that EN is called 'common' or something... they're just mouth noises guise). Also that the one removed was the native language of the head developer, which might be justified leaving in out of respect for his awesomeness. I wasn't personally aware of that stereotype about French being arrogant... I've met cool French people and mean Russians. But also nice Russians... the Internet is planet Earth so get on.
Aside from that I still see someone who contributed little work to the subgame getting permission to run the only server with said subgame, or so I understand. That's fine. Then try to tell the head developer working on his own time what needs to be fixed first etc. Not surprised he said 'deal with it'. I'm sorry if I misunderstand things, I don't mean it against anyone in particular but I can't help but notice I've seen this a few times while lurking this forum (all different parties) and I was frustrated that there were less "dev" posts for me to read that day maybe :p


Ok, now i understand better you point of view.

HulkSmashRocks wrote:EDIT: I'm sorry I didn't realize the FR tag on the server list didn't mean what I thought. My personal view is that you should be able to local chat in any language you want... global chat should be a common language to prevent all sorts of fun. Even better would be to code a new chatbox system with tabs to allow channels for each language...


Yes, that's a possible way to add a language support, but it's very complicated to code and implement it... We have a lot of bugfixs/crasfixs to work on it before working on any big project like this...
 

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Re: MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by HulkSmashRocks » Wed Sep 30, 2015 21:40

Minetestforfun wrote:Yes, that's a possible way to add a language support, but it's very complicated to code and implement it... We have a lot of bugfixs/crasfixs to work on it before working on any big project like this...


I'd love to help in coding some of these things. I am new to c++ though and still getting my head around MT engine, so it might be a minute before I can contribute anything meaningful. Are the IRC channels the best place to be to follow along the current work being done on bugs etc.?
 

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Re: MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by Minetestforfun » Thu Oct 01, 2015 09:45

Do not hesitate to join us on irc.inchra.net@#minetestforfun-dev we will discuss about our possibly work together :)

At this moment, we have between 40 and 60 issues to solve (if i addition the issues of all servers),
And a new website in construction,
And a new Minetest server in progression,
And a migration to a bigger server

So yes, we need more people, if you want join us, you're welcome :)
 

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Re: MinetestForFun Magichet CLOSURE

by prof-turbo » Tue Oct 06, 2015 17:00

jp wrote:
HulkSmashRocks wrote:And I am supposed to think French is a more important language than Russian or something?

Are we supposed to think that you're trying to corroborate (like many others does) the common stereotype that French are arrogant ? Seeing all those farfetched deductions, it seems so...


We are a french community :x
 


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