Mese has changed!

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Mese has changed!

by VanessaE » Fri Dec 21, 2012 01:08

To all modders who use Mese in their mods, either in crafting/cooking recipes or as an output from some process, please note that the default behavior and use of Mese has changed in Minetest Game. These changes were merged into minetest_game git master earlier today.

Although we all know about the instant messenger joke, Mese is now considered to be a crystal of alien origin. It is found in stone at the a couple of different ranges of depths; go deep enough and you start finding not only Mese Crystals embedded in stone, but also whole compact Mese Blocks. When you dig a Crystals-in-stone object, you're actually cutting the individual crystals from the surrounding stone, while the large Mese Blocks are collected directly.

How it works now:

Image

In practice, Mese now behaves similar to an ore, and looks like yellow chunks of material emedded in stone when found in the wild. When you dig one, you get something new instead of the block you dug. In order from left to right, they are:

default:stone_with_mese - looks like yellow chunks of crystal embedded into the stone. Found at depths of 128 meters and below. Drops 1 Mese Crystal on dig.

default:mese - looks like a yellow block engraved with the word "MESE". Found very deep underground (1024 meters and below). These should be reserved for recipes where one needs a whole lot of Mese in a compact space, though some people like to use them decoratively as well.

default:mese_crystal - looks sorta like a yellow brilliant-cut diamond. Obtained from digging the above stone_with_mese. These should be used to make tools and in recipes that would have used the original default:mese object.

default:mese_crystal_fragment - looks like a small shard of the above Crystal. These should be used in recipes where Mese is desired, but where a Crystal is logically "too much".

Crafting

Image

To get Mese Crystal Fragments, place one Mese Crystal into the crafting grid. Yields 9 Fragments. Fragments, once broken from a Crystal, cannot be converted back, so don't waste 'em!

Image
Image

To get Mese Blocks (e.g. default:mese), fill the crafting grid with 9 Mese Crystals. Yields 1 block, which can then be split back into Crystals when needed. Old mods/recipes that depended on the original default:mese object can still use these Mese Blocks where the old black-on-yellow object was used before.

Image

A Mese Pickaxe can be crafted from three Mese Crystals and two sticks, in the usual Pickaxe pattern.

The value of Mese

Modders should focus on using Mese Crystal Fragments for low-power/magic/value items such as coins, wires, etc.

Whole Mese Crystals as obtained by digging a Crystals-in-Stone object should be reserved for moderate-to-high power/magic/etc. recipes such as engines, magic staffs, etc. One Mese Crystal is equivalent in value, power, etc. to nine of the above fragments.

Mese Blocks should be reserved for high to insanely-powered/valued situations. There are, for example, a couple of mods that provide a sort of "compressed Mese" object. Such mods should probably use Mese Blocks either directly, or as feedstock for a new, even higher-valued compress recipe. Old mods whose recipes called for default:mese can still use these blocks, but they are now far more rare and far more expensive to obtain than before.
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by jojoa1997 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 01:10

LOVE IT
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by kaeza » Fri Dec 21, 2012 01:19

Excellent!
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by Josh » Fri Dec 21, 2012 02:13

Great!
 

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by RealBadAngel » Fri Dec 21, 2012 02:32

Finally :)
 

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by 0gb.us » Fri Dec 21, 2012 05:06

Oh .... How sad.

Mese is only meaningful in it's old form, and because of it's history. There was no reason for it to stop being a nonsensical block. We might as well remove it completely, and remove poptart cats while we're at it.

* sigh *

Oh well. This isn't the worst thing that could happen, but it is a little disheartening.




Also, I noticed this, which while it provides backwards compatibility, it's also inconsistent:

Your phone or window isn't wide enough to display the code box. If it's a phone, try rotating it to landscape mode.
Code: Select all
minetest.register_craft({
type = "shapeless",
output = 'default:mese',
recipe = {
'default:mese_crystal',
'default:stone',
}
})


You can't do that with coal or iron, so you shouldn't be able to do it with mese. In addition, the you add stone to mese to get back mese ore, which is what you had before you mined it. You loose stone in the process, which makes no sense. Where did it go? Maybe I would care less if stone was a renewable resource. It's probably just my OCD.
 

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by 0gb.us » Fri Dec 21, 2012 05:18

My sister just brought up a good point!

Any mese in people's inventories will be converted to mese ore after the update. default:mese should be the block, and default:mese_in_stone should be added to the ground by mapgen.lua.
 

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by Menche » Fri Dec 21, 2012 05:26

But, MESE has been the way it was for like forever... I'm not pleased with this. MESE was something that was distinctly minetest, now it's just another ore. Suppose I'll have to make a mod to fix this.
Last edited by Menche on Fri Dec 21, 2012 05:32, edited 1 time in total.
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by VanessaE » Fri Dec 21, 2012 05:33

I knew that was going to happen, but as mese in stone can be easily converted back to mese crystals as needed, I didn't see it as a problem. Place one, dig it, repeat for however much mese-in-stone you need to convert. Besides, it's not like it really loses any "value" being seen in that form, especially if you already have a mese pick handy to convert it with.

I suppose someone could write a mod that would translate mese in one's inventory/chests/etc.

Regarding crafting default:mese, that's strictly for backwards compatibility, and it's just your OCD talking, because where does the stone go when you dig coal or iron? :-)
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by 0gb.us » Fri Dec 21, 2012 08:13

VanessaE wrote:Regarding crafting default:mese, that's strictly for backwards compatibility, and it's just your OCD talking, because where does the stone go when you dig coal or iron? :-)


The difference is that in that case, it is a one way conversion. Therefore, default:iron_lump and default:iron_in_stone are essentially equivalent. With the new mese setup, mese can be used as a black hole for consuming masive amounts of stone. True, not many would do this, but where does all that stone go?

Now, if a single mese crystal could be crafted back into default:mese without involving default:stone, the problem would be solved. Not that anyone but me would actually care though.

Another option would be to have the inventory image for default:mese be a crystal, while the node looked like mese crystals in stone. This option wouldn't be good for the long run, and should not be taken as a suggestion, but the point is that backward compatibility can be done without creating circular crafting recipes that leave you with less than you started with. (This is why I don't like the way slabs are implemented. If the recipes were changed to output six slabs, the gap would be bridged.)

Don't mind me, I'm just over here being obsessive compulsive. If it bothers me to much, I can just comment out the backwards-compatibility recipe, and everything should be fine.

/me curls up into the fetal position, muttering "everything will be fine, everything will be fine", rocking slowly back and forth

Joking aside, this isn't even close to being on my long list of things that could go horribly wrong upstream. While very, VERY sad, this is something I can either do something about on my local copy, or just get over.

Menche wrote:But, MESE has been the way it was for like forever... I'm not pleased with this. MESE was something that was distinctly minetest, now it's just another ore. Suppose I'll have to make a mod to fix this.


I was actually thinking of doing the same thing. I've talked to three people on my server today about the change, and none of them like it either.

My biggest catch is figuring out what to do with the new item definitions. default:mese can be overwritten with the old definition, but to provide compatibility with other plugins, what do we do with the crystals, shards, and blocks? Aliases would be the simple answer, but I don't think you can override an item definition with an alias. It may require a custom version of the default plugin.

Or ..... what if we leave the new mese alone? We could define something like mese:mese, which could be added to the ground ALONGSIDE the new mese. Unfourtunently, mese:mese wouldn't be good for anything but picks, because no one would be using it in crafting recipes. What to do, what to do ....?
 

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by Menche » Fri Dec 21, 2012 18:47

I think I've come up with an idea of what to do with all the new stuff. I've overridden the new default:mese with the old in a mod; I'll see if I can just replace the mese_crystal with an alias to that default:mese. The fragments would just be a broken up form of normal mese, and the mese block would be a form of dense mese. A more powerful mese pick could be made from mese blocks; it would break blocks instantly like the normal one could back before 0.4.x.
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by 0gb.us » Fri Dec 21, 2012 19:31

Okay, sounds great!

I'm still not sure how you're going to get the aliasing to work though. Maybe hacking the crafting grid could be done to make the two act like the same ingredient, but only when crafting?
 

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by Casimir » Fri Dec 21, 2012 20:29

One thing I don't understand:
You started a thread to ask people what they think about the idea. Some liked it, a few don't. And even before the discussion really started you closed the thread and realised that idea.

I'm certain that we could find a solution that satisfies everyone, we just need to think and discuss.
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by jojoa1997 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 20:32

it was a pull request for a wkile and celeron added it she just needed enough yes
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by Menche » Fri Dec 21, 2012 20:47

0gb.us wrote:Okay, sounds great!

I'm still not sure how you're going to get the aliasing to work though. Maybe hacking the crafting grid could be done to make the two act like the same ingredient, but only when crafting?

It appears aliases don't work the way I thought they did. I could make mese and mese_crystal part of group "mese", but that would need mods and default to use that group. My best solution is to let mese_crystal be mined, and redefine mese_crystal to be like the old mese. This will work, but will still break compatibility with old mods (my goal is to be compatible with both the old way and the new unfortunate changes).
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by 0gb.us » Fri Dec 21, 2012 22:07

Right. That's were I ran into difficulty: compatibility with both old and new, while not using a custom version of default. The best I can come up with right now is to use the crystal as you were saying to be the old block, and using an ABM to convert default:mese into default:mese_crystal. Normally it wouldn't work because default:mese_crystal is a craft item, not a node, but once default:mese_crystal is redefined, it would be fine.

The problem is if someone uses this plugin, then removes it. I'm not certain what would happen if craft items were still embedded in the ground as nodes.
 

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by VanessaE » Fri Dec 21, 2012 22:35

Casimir: The merge was based mainly on the results of the straw poll I put in the first post. The discussion was supposed to be primarily for the "Yes, but make it something else entirely" option in the poll. Making it into crystals got overwhelming support over any other option.
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by InfinityProject » Fri Dec 21, 2012 23:42

I actually do like the old mese better. Just for the unique to minetest feel.
 

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by Mito551 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 19:51

i can't make a commit for textures. i have some trouble with github, so i'll just post my textures for mese and mese crystal here.
Image
Image
Image
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by jojoa1997 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 20:00

Mito551 wrote:i can't make a commit for textures. i have some trouble with github, so i'll just post my textures for mese and mese crystal here.
Image
Image
Image

that is too yellow and uneven i like vanessa's textures. the crystal looks like something that is half melted.
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by Mito551 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 20:36

jojoa1997 wrote:too yellow

are you kidding. the most yellow thing in minetest is mese. and vanessa's mese is far more yellow than mine. i tried to make it slightly orange
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by jojoa1997 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 20:39

Mito551 wrote:
jojoa1997 wrote:too yellow

are you kidding. the most yellow thing in minetest is mese. and vanessa's mese is far more yellow than mine. i tried to make it slightly orange


Sorry I meant too gold and dirty looking in my opinion. Vanessa's is more of a lighter shade and a lighter hue. Plus the orange reminds me of gold.
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by Mito551 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 21:26

ok. well, i mean to make as orange as possible keeping to original idea. take a look at mese pick from dwarves game.
 

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by jojoa1997 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 21:54

Mito551 wrote:ok. well, i mean to make as orange as possible keeping to original idea. take a look at mese pick from dwarves game.

But that is not the color of the original. Image
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by Mito551 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 23:15

i know. i just thought it was neat.
 

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by Casimir » Mon Dec 24, 2012 23:00

Do I understand this right:
- You can find Mese and Mese-crystals
- Mese drops Mese
- Crystals (stone_with_mese) drop Crystals
- Crafting one into the other is possible
- Mese stays the way it is
- Crystals add new possibilities

If that is what you mean, then I like it.
Last edited by Casimir on Mon Dec 24, 2012 23:01, edited 1 time in total.
 

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by VanessaE » Mon Dec 24, 2012 23:42

That's more or less it.

You can find the new Mese Blocks where old black-on-yellow default:mese was present before, i.e. areas of the map where it had already been spawned, or if someone made a structure with it.

You can find Mese Crystals in Stone in newly-generated map areas. Dig one and you get a Mese Crystal.

Crystals can be crafted into Blocks and vice versa.

The only side effect of this tweak is that I can't figure out how to override the alias that I have in the code that causes the new Mese Blocks to replace old mese, so that old mese can still be crafted with the stone+crystal recipe (trying to do so gives a mese block, so I disabled it).

It's basically either sacrifice compatibility with old maps/structures/inventories, or break a few mods' recipes. I still have to choose the latter.
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by Casimir » Mon Dec 24, 2012 23:58

Why do you want to get rid of the old mese? We could have both together.
 

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by 0gb.us » Tue Dec 25, 2012 00:00

This was all I needed to bring the idea into the range of workable. I'll stop putting up a stink about this.

Is there any chance we could use the old mese image for the block though? If not, that's okay too. I can just use a texture pack to make mese blocks display the way they used to.
 

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by 0gb.us » Tue Dec 25, 2012 00:01

Casimir wrote:Why do you want to get rid of the old mese? We could have both together.


True, we could have both together. That would be nice.
 

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