Tinas (This Is Not A Server)

[Casimir]

Short explanation:

Sharing a world/map. Playing Singleplayer on it. Hosting this map on a server.


Long explanation:

Complicated to explain (I always have problems explaining things).
The first time I played minecraft I had a strange idea. You know games like second life and world of warcraft have one big world everyone plays in, and reality itself is just one world, for minecraft there were a lot of small servers. Minecraftworld can be infinite, there is always enough space for everyone, so I had the idea of one big world in minecraft. That world would be hosted decentralised (in some obscure way I don't know). Due to the decentralisation the "server" wouldn't have any downtimes and would be powerful enough for all the people to play on. In fact it would be bigger the more players play. Because everyone who plays can host a "part" of the server.
But minecraft is closed source so it was not possible.

Then I found minetest and now I try to start something like this. Step by step. Starting with the things I can do, building on those I have done.
The easiest thing is to share a world, just like the normal worlds in minetest. You download it, build things and upload it again. Somebody else downloads your version, builds something else and uploads it again. And so on.
Next step is making an actual server. Not a permanent one - there is no need to. Just a server running for some time. Starting with the latest version of the map, people join, build stuff and when the server is shut down, the world will be uploaded again. Then somebody else can make a server with the same map and host it.


How to use:

Playing at the own computer:
- Look at the end of the tread. There you will find the last map. It won't be updated in the first post.
- Download and extrude it. Put it into the "worlds" folder in your minetest.
- Just play and build and mine and stuff. As long as you like. (Alternatively make a server.)
- (write your name in the licence.txt)
- Compress the map (as .zip .tar.gz or something else) upload that one somewhere.
- Post the link into this Thread.
- Return to step 1.

Playing at a temporary server:
- Look at the end of the tread. If there is somebody having a server with this map then
- Join. Just like on a normal server, because it is a normal server.


licence of the map: cc-by-sa
This licence applies to everything this map contains. Buildings and stuff.

==original post==
Just that simple:
A map upload somewhere decentralised.
Everyone can make a server using this map or play in Singleplayer.
Re-upload the new map.

So there would be like one big map and you can do with it what you want. No "this server is to slow", "I don't like the mods", "I don't like the moderators", "I don't like the rules" and so on.

But I don't know where to host. Freenet would be the best*, but it is very resource intensive. About owncloud I don't know much. Github is to complicated. And uploading everywhere is not a nice solution but it is something to start with.

Tomorrow (or some other day) I will start this (or someone else will do).

*Completely decentralised, saves all versions, "forgets" everything that is not used.

[Casimir]

http://ompldr.org/vZ243ZA/Tinas%201.zip

First time set up:
In your "games" folder make a copy of "minetest_game" and rename it to "tinas". This will prevent your mods to flood the world with objects others don't have.
Now you just have to download the latest version and play.

Reupload a new version:
Add the versionnumber (last one +1) and post here.

In the world files I added a "licence.txt". Feel free to add your name to the list. The licence is cc-by-sa. Keep in mind that everything you create in this world will be cc-by-sa.

[Ragnar]

Tomorrow (or some other day) I will start this (or someone else will do).

so, somebody will do it someday? LOL xD

[Ragnar]

great christmas wish... just like

Deas santa, i wish somebody will make me a present someday...

[Casimir]

You might have noticed that I did it my self on the next day (also known as "tomorrow") ;)

New version: http://ompldr.org/vZ29uNQ/Tinas%202.zip

I thought about what happens when two people play the world independent from each other and upload their versions. Something very interesting: Selforganisation/Evolution. The better one wins and continuous, the other one won't. Griefing makes no sense here.

[Casimir]

I'm trying to run a temporary server. Could anyone please try and tell me if it is working.
IP: 92.75.115.185 Port: 30000

[LorenzoVulcan]

I can't understand what that does.

[Casimir]

Complicated to explain (I always have problems explaining things).
The first time I played minecraft I had a strange idea. You know games like second life and world of warcraft have one big world everyone plays in, and reality itself is just one world, for minecraft there were a lot of small servers. Minecraftworld can be infinite, there is always enough space for everyone, so I had the idea of one big world in minecraft. That world would be hosted decentralised (in some obscure way I don't know). Due to the decentralisation the "server" wouldn't have any downtimes and would be powerful enough for all the people to play on. In fact it would be bigger the more players play. Because everyone who plays can host a "part" of the server.
But minecraft is closed source so it was not possible.

Then I found minetest and now I try to start something like this. Step by step. Starting with the things I can do, building on those I have done.
The easiest thing is to share a world, just like the normal worlds in minetest. You download it, build things and upload it again. Somebody else downloads your version, builds something else and uploads it again. And so on.
Next step is making an actual server. Not a permanent one - there is no need to. Just a server running for some time. Starting with the latest version of the map, people join, build stuff and when the server is shut down, the world will be uploaded again. Then somebody else can make a server with the same map and host it.

p.s. Anyone tried to join?

[Casimir]

Now it should work. Anybody testing? ;)

Can a mod move this to maps or server, just where you think it belongs to.

[LorenzoVulcan]

Complicated to explain (I always have problems explaining things).
The first time I played minecraft I had a strange idea. You know games like second life and world of warcraft have one big world everyone plays in, and reality itself is just one world, for minecraft there were a lot of small servers. Minecraftworld can be infinite, there is always enough space for everyone, so I had the idea of one big world in minecraft. That world would be hosted decentralised (in some obscure way I don't know). Due to the decentralisation the "server" wouldn't have any downtimes and would be powerful enough for all the people to play on. In fact it would be bigger the more players play. Because everyone who plays can host a "part" of the server.
But minecraft is closed source so it was not possible.

Then I found minetest and now I try to start something like this. Step by step. Starting with the things I can do, building on those I have done.
The easiest thing is to share a world, just like the normal worlds in minetest. You download it, build things and upload it again. Somebody else downloads your version, builds something else and uploads it again. And so on.
Next step is making an actual server. Not a permanent one - there is no need to. Just a server running for some time. Starting with the latest version of the map, people join, build stuff and when the server is shut down, the world will be uploaded again. Then somebody else can make a server with the same map and host it.

p.s. Anyone tried to join?

So it's like a P2P map system?

[Casimir]

I don't know any p2p map system, but basically yes.

New version: http://ompldr.org/vZ3RiaA/Tinas%203.zip

[Casimir]

[edit]
30000

The server will be up for about 2 hours (of as long as I am present here in the forum). Just join.
You will have interact-privilege by default.

Mods:
- autoplant
- drowning
- growing
- fullinventory

[Iqualfragile]

while im quite shure that this experiment is gona fail i think it would be a quite interesting idea having a distributed server-structure, the only problem is that you have to trust everybody running a part of the server…

[Casimir]

I think it's gona fail too, but at least I tried. Not because of technical reasons. It's just the number of participants, which is 1 (me).

the only problem is that you have to trust everybody running a part of the server…

Don't look at this project as something with a long-term goal, it is already working, better than I expected. All the things that could follow are just improvements.

[LazyJ]

You might have noticed that I did it my self on the next day (also known as "tomorrow") ;)

New version: http://ompldr.org/vZ29uNQ/Tinas%202.zip

I thought about what happens when two people play the world independent from each other and upload their versions. Something very interesting: Selforganisation/Evolution. The better one wins and continuous, the other one won't. Griefing makes no sense here.

Clarification request.

What happens when two or more people upload version 203?

Is there a single upload/download site that everyone accesses?

How will the combined map info be handled when two or more people build in the same spot of the map? (Pablo from Spain builds in the same spot that Huyen from Viet Nam builds and they both upload their versions of the map.) Unless the map is somehow parceled out so that a player is assigned that parcel and that parcel only.

An interesting idea. Pass or fail it is a worthy concept.

[Casimir]

For example I upload version 4 (the %20 in the links is because of the space) and say that I griefed all over the place. You upload version 4 and a screenshot of a wonderful building you made there. Then the next people will prefer your version. That would be more difficult if we both make wonderful buildings, but then one of us could use worldedit to save his building and reinsert it again into version 5.

This is how it would work now. There is only one worldfile. If we could split that up into many files that represent worldchunks it would partly work better, but would become more complicated in many ways. If one player builds something in area A and another builds something in area B, both can be uploaded. But that would require some program managing all the files (and automatic up and download) and an algorithm to choose which chunkfile to prefer if both players build in area A.

Is there a single upload/download site that everyone accesses?

That would destroy the whole idea behind that ;) . In the first post I mentioned own-cloud and the freenet-project which could be free standards for that. If the map is spilt up into parts (like mentioned above) a common place to upload would be required. And that should be decentralised to.

[Casimir]

Up again.

[edit]
30000

[LazyJ]

Ok, let's see what happens.

There is a way to include mods with the world by creating a subfolder in the "worlds" folder, ie:
hard-drive/minetest/worlds/TINAS/worldmods/included_mod_folders

When the world is downloaded and unzipped into the minetest/worlds folder, all the mods used will be with it, ready to go. No other installation required.

The mods I've added are: moreblocks, stairs+,xdoors, and xpanes. From a design standpoint of view, these mods really enhance the designbuild potential.


Here is TINAS 204
http://ompldr.org/vZ3Y0bg/Tinas04_2012_12_28.zip


Screenshots (Misa texture pack):

Singleplayer House
Added - cistern, steps, fence/railing, bushes in front of window



Tunnel
Changed - enlarged, added support beams and gravel path.




Added: waterfall, pond, path




Added: House 001




House 001 - 1st Floor




House 001 - 2nd Floor




House 001 - Attic




House 001 - Area Nightshot

[Casimir]

I just was about to give up :D
The valley has a very nice atmosphere.

I'm now running that world at:
[edit]
30000

mods:
moreblocks
stairs+
xdoors
xpanes
autoplant
drowning
growing
fullinventory

[Topywo]

I wanted to try it out too, so I downloaded Tinas04 for singleplayer and uploaded Tinas05. I made very small watchtower looking out over spawn and a little hideout under it. I put LazyJ and my name in the License.txt as you asked in your post.

Tinas05:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/65428713/Tinas05_2012_12_29.zip

Screenshot from the watchtower looking at LazyJ's house (default texture pack):




Edit: typo

[davidpace]

Alright! I am trying to join the server!

[EDIT] I can't connect D: is it down?

EDIT Guess I'll play it later then..

[Casimir]

It is up, but I get the message that you time out and "peer_id=3: failed to emerge player". Don't know what that means.

edit: now down

[Topywo]

I tried to connect the server just a minute ago, but it didn't connect either.

Edit: Nvm, saw your edit... in the previous post.

[Casimir]

The server had no sense since nobody could connect.

This version is with Topywos tower (and of course the rest) and some more buildings (when you go more to the north):
http://ompldr.org/vZ3Y5Yg/Tinas%206.zip
xfence added

[LazyJ]

TINAS 207
http://ompldr.org/vZ3dpdg/Tinas_207_2013_01_01.zip


Added Mod
Mauvebic's Bookmarks mod.
http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2321

This mod enhances the "/teleport" command by allowing players to set teleport locations using titles instead of numbers and those locations are bookmarked for later use in the /minetest/worlds/bookmark.go file.

Bookmark commands:
/setgo <title> Sets the teleport location with a title name.
/listgo Lists all the bookmarks that have been set.
/go <title> Go (teleport) to the specified location of the title name.

ie:
"/setgo casimir_singleplayer_house" will create a bookmark called "casimir_singleplayer_house".
"/go casimir_singleplayer_house" will teleport you to that location from whereever you are at in the tinas world.

Currently bookmarked:

• casimir_singleplayer_house
• lazyj_house_001
• topywo_lookout_tower
• outside_theater
• stalactite_cavern

Added Creations:

• Path from casimir_singleplayer_house to tunnel.
• Stalactite_cavern, an underground passage that links the valley path/pond/waterfall to topyywo's lookout tower.

Question:
So far we have three players develping the Tinas world seperately; how do we merge our creations?

[Casimir]

For the version I uploaded I used worldedit. But it is quite complicated.

[Casimir]

Version 208:
http://ompldr.org/vZ3dqeQ/Tinas%208.zip

Build a little bit here and there, not much new stuff.
New Bookmarks:
tea-house
deep_mine

Maybe it's easier when the time between the versions is smaller. So when two people do something parallel nothing much is lost, because the versions don't differ to much.

[LazyJ]

Before the days of electronic communication, long-distance chess players of old would mail the position of the pieces, one move per mailed letter at a time. Perhaps this vision of yours would be better served by employing such technique with worldedit?

I'm not very good at explaining either, so, please, bear with me. Maybe some of the following gibberish will make sence.

The chess board = tinas world.

The chess pieces = worldedit files.

Once a month, the most current version of the tinas world is posted for new players and infrequent players to download.

Between these monthly postings, regular players post worldedit files of their creations in the tina world *instead* of posting the entire tinas world.

Yes, worldedit is a bit complicated at first. Perhaps a short primer, specific to how tina world worldedits are to be done, could be created.

IE:
When posting a worldedit file to be added to the tinas world, coordinates for pos1 and pos2 must be posted along with the link to the worldedit file as well as screenshots of the construct that is in the worldedit file.

If every player is using the same map (seed), and they do the worldedit coords right, everything should fit neatly together. Be it buildings separated far from one another or paths/road connecting to one another.

Worldedit has a very particular requirement when placing worldedit files in the world. Pos1 must be the closest, lower-most, left corner and worldedit places the object starting in that corner and moves out forward, up and to the right. This is why pos1 and pos2 must be calculated correctly and posted.

I recommend using a mese block for pos1 and a steel block for pos2 and including them in the screenshots so players who wish to add the worldedit file have a better idea of the placement and orientation. Mese blocks and steel blocks are unique and easily identifiable. By insisting that players use them when creating worldedit files for tinas world, the convention will become a standard in tinas world. Players will come to recognize mese block = pos1 and steel block = pos2. This has worked for me because before I would forget which block was pos1; even worse when working underground. Mese block meant pos1 and whereever the steel block was, that indicated the direction worldedit was going to place the object. Too many times I only used pos1 and the worldedit object was placed behind me instead of in front where I was expecting it to show up. If it is a big object, a lot of damage was done very quickly. (Which is why it is always a good idea to make a backup copy of your world before doing anything big with worldedit.)

Next, use //p set on the mese block and steel block to get pos1 and pos2.

Next, use //p get to list the coords for both pos1 and pos2

Post pos1 and pos2 coords along with screenshots and the worldedit file(s).

To the player who wishes to place the worldedit object in their tinas world, set a mese block in the coords of pos1, then do the same with a steel block in the pos2 coords. By doing this, the player can see exactly where, in what direction, and how much space the worldedit object will be.

If all the players are using the same tinas world map seed, and they are all using the same worldedit conventions to place the creations of the other players of that tinas world, and a monthly download of the current-state tinas world is made available, then the issue of mismatched versions amongst players of the tinas world will be lessened. There is still the possiblility of builds overlapping if they are large or the player doesn't have a current monthly download of the map; but then that just proves how important it is to include the worldedit pos1 and pos2 coords in the post and the player's resposibility to survey and stake-out the area with a mese block and a steel block *before* placing the worldedit object.

This is a lot of extra work, yes, and because of that only those who are seriously interested will participate. A characteristic that is welcome on any Minetest server. Tinas world play could possibly be used as a sort of proving ground before players are accepted in more "select" servers.

Are you still awake?

Did you actually read this far??

Kudos if you did!

Ok, I'm done. (LazyJ steps down from the speech stump)

[Casimir]

I like the idea with worldedit. It is especially good for those who build single buildings. But I think that the part with the monthly update won't work. This would require someone merging all the stuff into the world and then uploading it. That would be to work not fun.
I think the best thing would be to do both. Upload the shems if you don't want to interfere with other versions, or upload the map. So you are still free to do what you like and we need no fixed organisation.

btw. new version
http://ompldr.org/vZ3hrbw/Tinas%209.zip
Build a small well and something in the desert.

[LazyJ]

TINAS 210
http://ompldr.org/vZ3p3Yg/Tinas_210_2013_01_08.zip

Added

• More paths and wayfinding signs
• Trellis
• Desert villa with water fountain in the court yard
• Bookmarks

Desert Villa