Mese has changed!

[0gb.us]

This should settle everyone's wishes regarding the behavior of Mese and the availability of the old Mese object:

https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/81

The new Mese Block will be found everywhere in the map where the old Mese object was generated or placed before, e.g. underground, or in existing structures.

Mese Crystals in Stone is now generated in place of the old Mese objects in newly-generated areas of the map - digging one of these gives a Mese Crystal as before.

Crystals can be crafted into Fragments or Blocks, and Blocks can be crafted back into Crystals.

The old Mese object can be crafted from two Mese Crystals (yields 2) and used in recipes that called for it, or you can craft two of them back into Mese Crystals to be used in newer recipes.

Wonderful. This should make everyone happy.

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Code: Select all

minetest.register_alias("default:mese", "default:mese_block")

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minetest.register_node("default:mese", {
description = "Mese (Old)",
tiles = {"default_mese.png"},
is_ground_content = true,
groups = {cracky=1},
sounds = default.node_sound_stone_defaults(),
})

However, I wonder what happens when you register default:mese as both a node AND an alias of default:mese_block. Which behaver will override the other? And if one is overriding the other, how does having both help?

[0gb.us]

Great. Everyone should be happy now. Thank you!

[VanessaE]

Well so much for trying to adapt the old mese to the new paradigm. No matter what I do, someone gets pissed off or it just doesn't behave acceptably.

Screw it. I give up on it. Want old mese back? Get Jeija's mod.

[0gb.us]

Well so much for trying to adapt the old mese to the new paradigm. No matter what I do, someone gets pissed off or it just doesn't behave acceptably.

Screw it. I give up on it. Want old mese back? Get Jeija's mod.

Well that's disappointing. At last you tried though.

[VanessaE]

Well I decided to un-giveup on it. See this pull request, which resurrects the previously-deleted code:

https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/85

If someone wants to merge this, that would be nice.

[Casimir]

Either we keep generating old mese, which is undesirable,

You still need to explain why this is a bad thing.

I think it is best to have both. The strange yellow block with MESE written on it and the MESE-crystal.
We could generate the MESE-crystal starting with deep -127 and MESE-block somewhere about -1024. While you would need about four crystals to get a block. And one block gives you four crystals.
In the normal gameplay you would first search hard for MESE-crystals until you can craft a MESE-pick. With that you can go down to -1024 faster. So crystals would be the common thing, while blocks are the bonus-extra-easter-egg.

[PilzAdam]

Either we keep generating old mese, which is undesirable,

You still need to explain why this is a bad thing.

I think it is best to have both. The strange yellow block with MESE written on it and the MESE-crystal.
We could generate the MESE-crystal starting with deep -127 and MESE-block somewhere about -1024. While you would need about four crystals to get a block. And one block gives you four crystals.
In the normal gameplay you would first search hard for MESE-crystals until you can craft a MESE-pick. With that you can go down to -1024 faster. So crystals would be the common thing, while blocks are the bonus-extra-easter-egg.

This is an interesting idea to keep the mese blocks.
Convert old mese blocks to new ones and spawn mese crystals. Also spawn mese blocks very deep underground.

[VanessaE]

It's undesirable because the old mese object is deprecated - if you keep on generating it, it'll never disappear from peoples' maps. It can still be obtained by crafting crystal + (stone or crystal, depending on whether you're using that latest patch). There's no reason to let it remain in the map, except to avoid breaking peoples mese structures.

Generating whole, cut crystals underground will not work since they're a craft item, not a node. Better to spawn the crystals-in-stone block instead, since digging that has the same effect as one would get by digging a spawned crystal.

The only way to convert old mese to the new mese blocks is either with an alias, which will convert ALL of it (maps, buildings, inventories), or with an ABM set up to only change stuff under a certain depth, thus leaving surface structures and inventories alone. But, an ABM takes up CPU while it's running, which is also undesirable.

[0gb.us]

Personally, I'm in favour of keeping access to both new and old mese blocks. Be that by crafting two crystals together to get two block like in VanessaE's latest patch, or some other way. The original mese has a lot of sentimental and historical value, and losing it would be just sad.

However, assuming that the old mese is removed completely, it is MUCH better to alias default:mese to default:mese_block than to alias default:mese to default:stone_with_mese. Among other reasons, like VanessaE said, some people have built houses and other structures out of mese. Those structures should be converted to blocks, not ores, as structures made of ore make little sense.

[VanessaE]

Here's what PilzAdam and I finally agreed on. This is now part of minetest_game.

https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/commit/33ec25caed35945359be1d78c0226180797e35a2

[PilzAdam]

To sum it up:

• Old mese is converted into a new mese block (has only a different texture).
• The new mese block can be used to craft all old recipes.
• Mese crystals are added. 9 of them can be crafted into one mese block and one block back into 9 crystals.
• The crystals spawn in stone like old mese has done before.
• The new mese block spawns deep underground.
• Crystals can be crafted into crystal fragments.

[VanessaE]

First post updated to account for these changes, screenshots/crafting information added and clarified.

[Menche]

Still can't understand why it had to be changed in the first place.

[Casimir]

Me too. But I like it now more than the way it was before (but haven't tested it yet).

[VanessaE]

1. Old Mese is ugly and was originally supposed to be a joke, in addition to being just anything that could be found and collected when there was hardly anything to find yet. It needs to be phased out in favor of something that is designed from the start *not* to be a joke.

2. This provides more options for modders to use in their crafting recipes. One Mese block can take the place of 9 of the old one in recipes designed for the purpose, while at the same time a single crystal fragment could be used where a whole Crystal is just too much. For every block you add, you multiply the number of possible recipes greatly, so adding two more means a *much* larger craft recipe space than before.

3. It provides a firm foundation upon which economy-based servers and mods can base the value of their currency without resorting to obscure subdivisions of Mese or huge quantities of materials gained in trade for it. Define it clearly and properly, and people will be more likely to use your definitions instead of making up their own.

[PilzAdam]

1. Old Mese is ugly and was originally supposed to be a joke, in addition to being just anything that could be found and collected when there was hardly anything to find yet. It needs to be phased out in favor of something that is designed from the start *not* to be a joke.

2. This provides more options for modders to use in their crafting recipes. One Mese block can take the place of 9 of the old one in recipes designed for the purpose, while at the same time a single crystal fragment could be used where a whole Crystal is just too much. For every block you add, you multiply the number of possible recipes greatly, so adding two more means a *much* larger craft recipe space than before.

3. It provides a firm foundation upon which economy-based servers and mods can base the value of their currency without resorting to obscure subdivisions of Mese or huge quantities of materials gained in trade for it. Define it clearly and properly, and people will be more likely to use your definitions instead of making up their own.

And also this old mese was somehow... uncreative. Adding a more "complex" system makes Minetest a bit more a "real game".

[Casimir]

So that are reasons I understand (except the joke part - I like jokes).


subtitle: Tell that a minecrafter.

[0gb.us]

First, before someone thinks the following is an attack, I'd like to point out that my only real issue with new mese was the "stone + crystal == ore" recipe. Now that that is gone, I can deal with whatever else you guys want to do. However, I disagree with the logic and implementation of this new mese. Again, I can deal, but want to point out the flaws, in hopes that this will be implemented better than it currently is.

1. Old Mese is ugly and was originally supposed to be a joke, in addition to being just anything that could be found and collected when there was hardly anything to find yet. It needs to be phased out in favor of something that is designed from the start *not* to be a joke.

In that case, let's phase out poptart cats and rainbows as well. They're a bigger gag item than mese ever was. Also, mese (in it's original form), is something that is distinctly Minetest. No other game has it.

2. This provides more options for modders to use in their crafting recipes. One Mese block can take the place of 9 of the old one in recipes designed for the purpose, while at the same time a single crystal fragment could be used where a whole Crystal is just too much. For every block you add, you multiply the number of possible recipes greatly, so adding two more means a *much* larger craft recipe space than before.

What about on vanilla servers (or even in a vanilla single player game)? Someone crafts some mese fragments, not knowing what they are, and they've just wasted their mese because fragments are useless, and cannot be crafted back into crystals. Like the vessels plugin, it doesn't make sense to include mese crystal fragments in the default vanilla game. Vessels and fragments are great as an addon to expand the recipe space, but but not as part of minetest_game.

I'd also like to point out that at least with vessels, you can craft them back into glass blocks (or iron ingots). It will cost you a little firewood, but at least you'll get your glass (or iron ingots) back. With crystals, no form of "recycling" is implemented.

And don't tell me to add mese crystal shard recycling with a plugin because, as I said, I'm talking about inclusion in an unmodified vanilla game. If recycling can be added by servers that need it, so can crystal shards and vessels.

3. It provides a firm foundation upon which economy-based servers and mods can base the value of their currency without resorting to obscure subdivisions of Mese or huge quantities of materials gained in trade for it. Define it clearly and properly, and people will be more likely to use your definitions instead of making up their own.

Perhaps there should be some sort of official plugin pack that includes standards-defining plugins to keep things unified. Believe me, I'm wholly in favour of standards. This pack would include things that are currently in the default game, but don't belong there. To start, it could include:
* dye (because it's unobtainable in a vanilla game)
* mese_crystal_shards (because they don't do anything in a vanilla game)
* vessels (because they don't do anything in a vanilla game)
* wool (because it's unobtainable in a vanilla game)

[SegFault22]

With all of the controversy going on, I have a fix!
How about a configuration file option (server-side) for enabling/disabling mese blocks and mese crystals?
That way, we pro-miners can collect the crystals for our shiny new superconductor mese-fibre electric cables pumping EUs from our Fusion reactors, and everyone who likes the old block can keep it the way it was, and use it for whatever they use it for.
That way, everyone's happy :D

[jojoa1997]

With all of the controversy going on, I have a fix!
How about a configuration file option (server-side) for enabling/disabling mese blocks and mese crystals?
That way, we pro-miners can collect the crystals for our shiny new superconductor mese-fibre electric cables pumping EUs from our Fusion reactors, and everyone who likes the old block can keep it the way it was, and use it for whatever they use it for.
That way, everyone's happy :D

+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------(sorry PC broke after sensing no stop of zeros)

[xavier108]

I like the old mese

[rarkenin]

I think the toggle should be implemented for many such changes, like the possible introduction of the bones mod, et cetera.

[GloopMaster]

Personally, the newest version of mese is excellent. If anything, it adds more possible creativeness in mods.

[0gb.us]

I really didn't like the stone + crystal == ore recipe. If for no other reason, it was incredibly hacky.

Now that it's been removed, the idea of crystal mese is growing on me. I'm still not sure crystal shards should be used, and I think the mese block should keep the original sloppy image, but overall, it's probably a good thing.

[PilzAdam]

I really didn't like the stone + crystal == ore recipe. If for no other reason, it was incredibly hacky.

Now that it's been removed, the idea of crystal mese is growing on me. I'm still not sure crystal shards should be used, and I think the mese block should keep the original sloppy image, but overall, it's probably a good thing.

Yea, the recipe was just a bad idea by VanessaE to create something like backwards compatibility.

[Evergreen]

I'm not really sure what to think about this. I want the old mese, but the new crystals allow for more crafting recipes. :/

[VanessaE]

Classic "default:mese" still exists, it's just called a Mese Block now, and is to be treated as 9 times more valuable/powerful/harder/magical than the old stuff. The old stuff is equivalent in function/power/etc to a crystal.