Lava is no longer renewable!?

[0gb.us]

The reason it's being done is just to make Minetest more like Minecraft. Minecraft lava has the same habit of not regenerating.

Wrong.

This change makes it a lot harder to build things out of lava. For example, lava moats, lava beacons for lighthouses, and glass ceilings with lava pools above them to light a room.

Thats the reason. It makes the game more challenging. Also obsidian is harder to get.

Obsidian is a black volcanic glass. It's really not that valuable. Why does it need to be hard to get?

[PilzAdam]

The reason it's being done is just to make Minetest more like Minecraft. Minecraft lava has the same habit of not regenerating.

Wrong.

This change makes it a lot harder to build things out of lava. For example, lava moats, lava beacons for lighthouses, and glass ceilings with lava pools above them to light a room.

Thats the reason. It makes the game more challenging. Also obsidian is harder to get.

Obsidian is a black volcanic glass. It's really not that valuable. Why does it need to be hard to get?

Something has to be rare. And since obsidian would be infinite if you find 2 lava sources its reasonable to make it rare.

[0gb.us]

Wrong.

Thats the reason. It makes the game more challenging. Also obsidian is harder to get.

Obsidian is a black volcanic glass. It's really not that valuable. Why does it need to be hard to get?

Something has to be rare. And since obsidian would be infinite if you find 2 lava sources its reasonable to make it rare.

Poptart cats are rare. Rainbows are are. Papyrus was rare until you added growth to it (not that I'm complaining about that). Obsidian doesn't need to be.

Also, trying it out, it seems the new obsidian is HARD LIKE IN MINECRAFT. In other words, you ARE copying Minecraft. Obsidian is a GLASS. It is brittle and EASY TO BREAK.

Obsidian is hard and brittle

The misconception of obsidian's hardness may be due to its use during the Stone Age in blades and arrow tips; While fragile, it can be chipped into extremely sharp edges.

[PilzAdam]

Also, trying it out, it seems the new obsidian is HARD LIKE IN MINECRAFT. In other words, you ARE copying Minecraft. Obsidian is a GLASS. It is brittle and EASY TO BREAK.

Yes, I am copying minecraft here. But I dont add it to copy minecraft but to add a good aspect to the gameplay.
And we shouldnt be too realistic here. To make it more interesing I added obsidian shards (wich can be crafted out of the obsidian rock) and obsidian glass (wich can be gotten by smelting the shards). This is something that minecraft doesnt have (AFAIK) and its an interesting feature.

[jojoa1997]

Also, trying it out, it seems the new obsidian is HARD LIKE IN MINECRAFT. In other words, you ARE copying Minecraft. Obsidian is a GLASS. It is brittle and EASY TO BREAK.

Yes, I am copying minecraft here. But I dont add it to copy minecraft but to add a good aspect to the gameplay.
And we shouldnt be too realistic here. To make it more interesing I added obsidian shards (wich can be crafted out of the obsidian rock) and obsidian glass (wich can be gotten by smelting the shards). This is something that minecraft doesnt have (AFAIK) and its an interesting feature.

I didn't want this. I say add obsidian ore which drops 9 crystals that you have to either cook for glass or place for blocks. PikzAdam please change it to be like this. Also the ore should be brittle. I will add a pull request for it later but it will not add textures since I can't make good ones.

[0gb.us]

Also, trying it out, it seems the new obsidian is HARD LIKE IN MINECRAFT. In other words, you ARE copying Minecraft. Obsidian is a GLASS. It is brittle and EASY TO BREAK.

Yes, I am copying minecraft here. But I dont add it to copy minecraft but to add a good aspect to the gameplay.
And we shouldnt be too realistic here. To make it more interesing I added obsidian shards (wich can be crafted out of the obsidian rock) and obsidian glass (wich can be gotten by smelting the shards). This is something that minecraft doesnt have (AFAIK) and its an interesting feature.

The reason it's being done is just to make Minetest more like Minecraft.

Wrong.

So in other words, I was right, but you said I was wrong to try to throw me off because you didn't want to admit it?

Well, if you're admitting it now, I can't really argue any further. If the goal it to be like Minecraft, this is a great way to do it.

If the goal is to add to gameplay, why not have lava cool into some sort of overly hard rock? Why call it obsidian?

EDIT: Typo.

[PilzAdam]

Also, trying it out, it seems the new obsidian is HARD LIKE IN MINECRAFT. In other words, you ARE copying Minecraft. Obsidian is a GLASS. It is brittle and EASY TO BREAK.

Yes, I am copying minecraft here. But I dont add it to copy minecraft but to add a good aspect to the gameplay.
And we shouldnt be too realistic here. To make it more interesing I added obsidian shards (wich can be crafted out of the obsidian rock) and obsidian glass (wich can be gotten by smelting the shards). This is something that minecraft doesnt have (AFAIK) and its an interesting feature.

The reason it's being done is just to make Minetest more like Minecraft.

Wrong.

So in other words, I was right, but you said I was wrong to try to throw me off because you didn't want to admit it?

No. The reason why it is added is not because minecraft has it, but because its a nice gameplay feature. There is a difference between this.
And I have done it similiar to minecraft because they have done it (this particular feature) in a good way.

[Traxie21]

Can a sustainable stone generator be made eith the new lava?

[0gb.us]

Can a sustainable stone generator be made eith the new lava?

Stone? Yes. Flowing lava becomes stone, so as long as you keep the water away from the lava source, you should be able to gather stone for as long as your pick holds out.

[Linxx]

i would like to ask evryone to forget about minecraft for just a minute and think what does the obsidian adds to the game....i havent tried obsidian yet looks interesting and it might add stuff to the game but i don't quite see what that might be...

[Dopium]

Personally to be honest all my textures i edit to 16x16 minecraft and alot of the mods i use are minecraft related/inspired. I know alot of people dont want minetest to copy minecraft but if minetest didnt implement some minecraft features id say half the minetest community would play minecraft. Have to keep in mind alot of the users are people that were actually looking for a minecraft clone, like it or not.

Looking into the way Adam has implemented this feature i can understand why lava doesnt regenerate. Hard topic because alot of this comes down to personal preference and im sure minecraft has changes from time to time that doesnt keep everyone happy. With that said i do think water and lava shouldnt flow unless falling or on a slope, not a source but rather still when in a pool ect. Flowing liquid in a "closed box" without an opening per-say is a bit weird but thats my opinion.

Edit: I mean when you pour water/liquid into something its not a source anymore but in closed its a still liquid not flowing.

[0gb.us]

i would like to ask evryone to forget about minecraft for just a minute and think what does the obsidian adds to the game....i havent tried obsidian yet looks interesting and it might add stuff to the game but i don't quite see what that might be...

It would add just as much to the game if he called it by a non-Minecraft name. If he made it into an overly-hard volcanic rock, it would have the same effect as having an overly-hard volcanic glass, without the need to be overly Minecrafty.

EDIT: Although I still think the loss of easy to use lava is not worth the gain of this new feature.

[Topywo]

I could find the following (opposing) arguments in this interesting thread:

Lava sources may not be renewable because:
- Obsidian must be rare (Obsidian must be made by a lava source)
- Lava sources creating more lava sources can cause a lot of grief-damage

Lava sources must be renewable because:
- They are used as decoration and as a light source for structures
- Lava sources creating more lava sources speed up the building proces

I noticed lava_flowing 'blocks' disappear when there's no source near.

What if lava_flowing:
- could be collected in a bucket or digged and not only 1 unit but 99
- wouldn't disappear without a source (but is/keeps on being buildable to make it disappear)
- doesn't create more lava_flowing and only spreads like a little pyramid (1 block and 4 gliding/diagonal blocks)

Would that be a acceptable/doable solution?

[PilzAdam]

I could find the following (opposing) arguments in this interesting thread:

Lava sources may not be renewable because:
- Obsidian must be rare (Obsidian must be made by a lava source)
- Lava sources creating more lava sources can cause a lot of grief-damage

Lava sources must be renewable because:
- They are used as decoration and as a light source for structures
- Lava sources creating more lava sources speed up the building proces

I noticed lava_flowing 'blocks' disappear when there's no source near.

What if lava_flowing:
- could be collected in a bucket or digged and not only 1 unit but 99
- wouldn't disappear without a source (but is/keeps on being buildable to make it disappear)
- doesn't create more lava_flowing and only spreads like a little pyramid (1 block and 4 gliding/diagonal blocks)

Would that be a acceptable/doable solution?

This is basically the idea of the finite liquids. Add liquid_finite = true to minetest.conf

[Topywo]

This is basically the idea of the finite liquids. Add liquid_finite = true to minetest.conf

I tried it out. I understand what you mean. I also noticed that as soon as the lava_source is released in more than a 1x1 hole, it turns into lava_flowing, what would be okay. But it's not (yet?) doing what I suggested. With the present built and finite=true I still can't 'handle' the lava_flowing.

My idea is to give the players the possibility to keep at least one lava_source (stuck undergound?) available that can produce lava_flowing with the previous suggested abilities to meet the wishes of the players in favor of renewability and building with lava. The other, stil scarce, lava_sources would than be available for obsidian or just as backup.

[Casimir]

It seems to me that the basic problem is not the obsidian, but something else.
The thing is that no one requested that feature, it has not been discussed before, but all of a sudden it appears to be part of the game.

It is more fun to discuss new features, if they should be in the game or not, than to complain about things that already have been implemented.

[PilzAdam]

The thing is that no one requested that feature, it has not been discussed before, but all of a sudden it appears to be part of the game.

It has been discuseed in IRC.

[Casimir]

IRC.

I know you would say that. First: there are only a few people on IRC at one time, so you only ask a few people (and those are mostly the same most of the time). Second: IRC is a chat. When you discuss a topic, half an hour later you might talk about something else. So even if someone checks the IRC to see if there is something new discussed it is gone half an hour later. You would need to read the logs, but I don't have the time to read all of this.

[PilzAdam]

IRC.

I know you would say that. First: there are only a few people on IRC at one time, so you only ask a few people (and those are mostly the same most of the time). Second: IRC is a chat. When you discuss a topic, half an hour later you might talk about something else. So even if someone checks the IRC to see if there is something new discussed it is gone half an hour later. You would need to read the logs, but I don't have the time to read all of this.

Most of the important devs are on IRC and they mostly agreed.

[Sokomine]

For me, Obsidain has the advantage of having a very dark/black texture - good for building. Sometimes you just need something of that color. It ought to be not too rare for that purpose. In that way, clay is far too rare - after all, it is a more suitable building material than white wool.
Maybe obsidian could be produced the same way as stone, just less likely?

[Casimir]

"Most of the important devs" = small group of people

Also the grass. Just... why? There already is junglegrass. And the new cobble texture, and why stonebricks? And why do jungletrees need their own wooden planks?
Thats all completely unnecessary, nice for a mod, but unnecessary for the default game. And its all stuff copied from minecraft, and even there it was unnecessary.
Only reason for stonebricks in MC, because the cobble-texture is ugly. Only reason for junglewood in MC is that they had no new ideas and a bad modsupport. Only reason for obsidian in MC was the Nether. And if you really want glass with a darker texture than use glass+coal as recipe.

[PilzAdam]

"Most of the important devs" = small group of people

Also the grass. Just... why? There already is junglegrass. And the new cobble texture, and why stonebricks? And why do jungletrees need their own wooden planks?
Thats all completely unnecessary, nice for a mod, but unnecessary for the default game. And its all stuff copied from minecraft, and even there it was unnecessary.
Only reason for stonebricks in MC, because the cobble-texture is ugly. Only reason for junglewood in MC is that they had no new ideas and a bad modsupport. Only reason for obsidian in MC was the Nether. And if you really want glass with a darker texture than use glass+coal as recipe.

So, you mean we shouldnt add anything to minetest_game because it is bad/copies MC?

[rarkenin]

IRC.

I know you would say that. First: there are only a few people on IRC at one time, so you only ask a few people (and those are mostly the same most of the time). Second: IRC is a chat. When you discuss a topic, half an hour later you might talk about something else. So even if someone checks the IRC to see if there is something new discussed it is gone half an hour later. You would need to read the logs, but I don't have the time to read all of this.

Most of the important devs are on IRC and they mostly agreed.

While "important devs" are important, it is a simple concept in the business world that "the most important person is the customer". Take that into account here. We're trying to give feedback, and argue our point, using logic, not power.

[0gb.us]

For me, Obsidain has the advantage of having a very dark/black texture - good for building. Sometimes you just need something of that color. It ought to be not too rare for that purpose. In that way, clay is far too rare - after all, it is a more suitable building material than white wool.
Maybe obsidian could be produced the same way as stone, just less likely?

That sounds great to me. Or, if the problem is that obsidian is too valuable, we could always make obsidian less valuable, but making it as brittle as it should be.

"Most of the important devs" = small group of people

Also the grass. Just... why? There already is junglegrass. And the new cobble texture, and why stonebricks? And why do jungletrees need their own wooden planks?
Thats all completely unnecessary, nice for a mod, but unnecessary for the default game. And its all stuff copied from minecraft, and even there it was unnecessary.
Only reason for stonebricks in MC, because the cobble-texture is ugly. Only reason for junglewood in MC is that they had no new ideas and a bad modsupport. Only reason for obsidian in MC was the Nether. And if you really want glass with a darker texture than use glass+coal as recipe.

Here's my take on the grass. PilzAdam added jungle gress back to the game, because it was a useless node (as in, it was defined but unobtainable). He was giving it back to us, and making it a part of the game again. Later, when full jungles were added back, Celeron55 said jungles needed jungle grass. This makes sense, as that was the original place to find jungle grass. But jungle grass was now already in use. So PilzAdam moved jungle grass back to the jungle, and defined something new to take it's place outside the jungle.

The grass is sort of interesting to play with too. It's fun, you should try it out. When you place it, it has a "random" length.

While "important devs" are important, it is a simple concept in the business world that "the most important person is the customer". Take that into account here. We're trying to give feedback, and argue our point, using logic, not power.

So true I don't even have anything to add.

[Temperest]

I personally think lava should be renewable, but not as easy to get as it is if it were refilling. I think this is a fair compromise - obsidian and derivatives are still valuable (because work/creativity is required), and long-running worlds are still sustainable.

Now how this should be implemented is another matter. I think lava should stay non-refilling like it is now, but have some other way of getting renewable lava. The underground infinite lava springs in finite liquids is a good start, but the lava it creates should be usable by a bucket, not to mention that these springs should be available even without finite liquids enabled.

As it is now, the lava it creates can't be picked up using a bucket, and when finite liquids are off, there are no ways to get renewable lava.

In short: lava renewable, but hard to get.

The way I see it, it is not a matter of refilling or not (which is never going to be agreed upon), but making the game as fun as possible, from start to endgame.

[0gb.us]

I personally think lava should be renewable, but not as easy to get as it is if it were refilling. I think this is a fair compromise - obsidian and derivatives are still valuable (because work/creativity is required), and long-running worlds are still sustainable.

Now how this should be implemented is another matter. I think lava should stay non-refilling like it is now, but have some other way of getting renewable lava. The underground infinite lava springs in finite liquids is a good start, but the lava it creates should be usable by a bucket, not to mention that these springs should be available even without finite liquids enabled.

As it is now, the lava it creates can't be picked up using a bucket, and when finite liquids are off, there are no ways to get renewable lava.

In short: lava renewable, but hard to get.

The way I see it, it is not a matter of refilling or not (which is never going to be agreed upon), but making the game as fun as possible, from start to endgame.

That will make certain projects that were previously manageable quite difficult.

However, my main concern is the sustainability of a world. If this is the path to making that happen, let's do it.

[Linxx]

i would like to ask evryone to forget about minecraft for just a minute and think what does the obsidian adds to the game....i havent tried obsidian yet looks interesting and it might add stuff to the game but i don't quite see what that might be...

It would add just as much to the game if he called it by a non-Minecraft name. If he made it into an overly-hard volcanic rock, it would have the same effect as having an overly-hard volcanic glass, without the need to be overly Minecrafty.

EDIT: Although I still think the loss of easy to use lava is not worth the gain of this new feature.

atleast solves the water with oil effect that lava had when lava was poured into water

[0gb.us]

i would like to ask evryone to forget about minecraft for just a minute and think what does the obsidian adds to the game....i havent tried obsidian yet looks interesting and it might add stuff to the game but i don't quite see what that might be...

It would add just as much to the game if he called it by a non-Minecraft name. If he made it into an overly-hard volcanic rock, it would have the same effect as having an overly-hard volcanic glass, without the need to be overly Minecrafty.

EDIT: Although I still think the loss of easy to use lava is not worth the gain of this new feature.

atleast solves the water with oil effect that lava had when lava was poured into water

That was fixed by the lava to stone/cobble update, and is independent of the lava-isn't-renewable update. It's good to have lava become stone or cobble, it isn't good to make lava finite. Obsidian might be okay too, if it wasn't putting a cap on our lava quota.

EDIT: Typo.

[jojoa1997]

The thing is that no one requested that feature, it has not been discussed before, but all of a sudden it appears to be part of the game.

It has been discuseed in IRC.

no it wasnt i remmeber you saying something but you never expalined it. i chacked the logs and only calinou said yes. i take back my vote cause i thought that he meant infinite.

17:41 PilzAdam should we make lava finite?
17:42 PilzAdam (i.e. not renewable lava_source)
17:43 Calinou PilzAdam: +1 for finite lava

PilzAdam you didnt discuss you asked and only ONE answered. here is the link to where he asked in the logs. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest/2013-03-17#i_2935791

[PilzAdam]

The thing is that no one requested that feature, it has not been discussed before, but all of a sudden it appears to be part of the game.

It has been discuseed in IRC.

no it wasnt i remmeber you saying something but you never expalined it.

It was already discussed long time ago when the liquid_renewable option was added.