Casimir wrote:I lost interest in modding because of all the fighting. I just want minetest to be a good game.
Casimir wrote:When the community reaches a consensus then the release will be made.
Casimir wrote:community
Casimir wrote:reaches a consensus
4aiman wrote:I'd rather made a list of ready-to use but unmerged features, added features that has been "banned" by core team and then open a discussion. What should we add - what shouldn't. It would be WRONG from the point of gif, but we can cherry-pick needed features and actually use them with the latest Minetest. We will have progression and won't wait core team to decide what is good.
If smth won't work - we always can remove that feature and add it later if it will be fixed.
Also, community never will reach a consensus, but we always can rely on majority. There will be discouraged ones, true. But that discouraged will pay more attention and after week or so we'll make another build, based on a new discussion/poll. In the end there will be a group of active players and developers who want to make his/her influence upon unofficial build and will participate in discussion almost every time, knowing his/her voice really can do something good.
PilzAdam wrote:So you basically want a "throw everything in" fork.
celeron55 wrote:You seem to consider the "core team" to be some oddly distant thing. And because of that, you want to work around the core team. I consider this ridiculous and irresponsible.
celeron55 wrote:The core team is just a bunch of more or less experienced members of the community who want to give their input and time to the development of the main Minetest distribution (or upstream, whatever one wants to call it).
The core team is not set in stone; it is set every day based on who designs, makes and does useful and dependable stuff for the common good of the project. We have *very little* flow of people out or in of it, and it is *not* at all what we want. We just have no way of making it different, except maybe this post that I am writing now.
celeron55 wrote:If you see a problem in upstream Minetest, what you need to do is come on #minetest-dev and explain your thoughts, and explain what you would be ready to do about it. And then work out how or whether it will fit in with what others are doing or planning to do. Then do it. No amount of independent mods can replace a well thought-out main project. And nobody else than each of you is responsible for it.
Psychotic wrote:Regardless, something needs to be done, independent developers should be given a platform for their releases.
PilzAdam wrote:So you basically want a "throw everything in" fork.
celeron55 wrote:You seem to consider the "core team" to be some oddly distant thing. And because of that, you want to work around the core team. I consider this ridiculous and irresponsible.
4aiman wrote:PilzAdam wrote:So you basically want a "throw everything in" fork.
If you think so, then you didn't understand a thing I was trying to say... or hadn't read well... Anyway, try again if you feel you want to get my point.
PilzAdam wrote:Basically every poll in the forum about features will be answered with "yes", because people tend to throw things simply in.
Game development needs a direction. This cant be accomplished by letting more or less random people decide about what should go in.
If we dont simply throw everything in, like we currently do, we have to say "No" to many features. But this is not bad. Minetest is not a engine that should contain every feature that random people currently want. We need a general direction and only pick features that suit this goal.
celeron55 wrote:Psychotic wrote:Regardless, something needs to be done, independent developers should be given a platform for their releases.
That is one of the functions of this forum.
Also, who are you even asking that from? Are you thinking somebody will just invent and personally give those "independent developers" some "platform" on some kind of a golden plate? No. If you want a release platform, you do it yourself, either independently (and... then moan again about your release platform requiring a release platform?), or in co-operation with other people who are working on upstream releases (= the core team).
mauvebic wrote:PilzAdam wrote:Basically every poll in the forum about features will be answered with "yes", because people tend to throw things simply in.
Game development needs a direction. This cant be accomplished by letting more or less random people decide about what should go in.
If we dont simply throw everything in, like we currently do, we have to say "No" to many features. But this is not bad. Minetest is not a engine that should contain every feature that random people currently want. We need a general direction and only pick features that suit this goal.
A lot of the features that did go through were also hotly contested, which might lead to the conclusion that it's only the features the devs personally agree with that get through. Im not one to complain, I along with alot of old-timers play our own games by now, im just pointing out how things can work both ways.
Choosing a direction is one thing, choosing who choses the direction, limits the scope further.
The way I see it, we have two mediums for measuring contributions, github and ohloh. But, we only have one medium for gauging what the users want, the forums (the only thing with polls), and that's already ignored on the presumption that users don't really know what they want. What does that leave? Random people are players, and there's no guessing what they might accomplish with either the API or the engine, given the chance.
PilzAdam wrote:FYI ohloh just counts the commits on git.
And the general direction is already defined: create a MC like game.
PilzAdam wrote:And the general direction is already defined: create a MC like game.
mauvebic wrote:judging from reactions from one particular member, we don't feel very welcomed either.
rarkenin wrote:C++-side mods that can make powerful changes outside the API. These would need to be installed client-side if need be, but would have a good amount of access to the environment by way of the proper access levels being given to the instances of server, client, etc objects. We install these if we want changes that can't happen in Lua. This is relatively similar to how Minecraft works with mods acting at the engine level.
celeron55 wrote:mauvebic wrote:judging from reactions from one particular member, we don't feel very welcomed either.
You are talking about hmmmm. Why can't you just say it aloud? Being secretive helps nothing in here. Also, I think hmmmm is a reasonable person, and always agrees to well-explained and well thought out things. But regardless of that, he is not the only member of the team, and if someone insists on going to provoke hmmmm and getting provoked themselves, that is not my problem. Do you even have any other examples of this? And how can you prove that any of these would have been better for the project if having been accepted as-is?
Personally I would like to have had prestidigitator's stuff, but it apparently quite much overlaps with what hmmmm has been working on for a long time, and I personally know very well how hard and unproductive it is to try to incorporate some random stuff from somebody else to something you have designed from the ground up. Thus, I will not blame anyone in here.
In addition to that, you are basically sawing the branch on which you are sitting, if you unconditionally blame hmmmm for everything. That is not wise at all. Good thing hmmmm is emotionally tough enough to stand all this crap...
And I must mention I don't like the word "team". What I mean by "team" is just "the people who do upstream stuff".
So anyway, I don't understand why I even bother trying to get people understand or do anything, but in case somebody is less of a professional insult-getter: In upstream development, at this exact moment, I would like to see somebody to help PilzAdam in the long term to decide on and develop the game content stuff, and for example somebody to design and implement more advanced positioning in the Lua HUD interface.
Do good stuff, but discuss about it beforehand on #minetest-dev. Such good stuff will be accepted.
And if you have lost all your hope to the core team, why are you even trying? You are just wasting your time and you know it. Go to hell and die. Or make a fork.
My view overally on this is that people are just lazy to communicate properly and try to blame others for it. Me more or less included, but at least I admit it.
celeron55 wrote:The general idea about this is that we shouldn't need this because MT is an open source project. Maintaining many APIs is a pain, and compiling C++ modules for all supported platforms simply sucks.
celeron55 wrote:You are talking about hmmmm. Why can't you just say it aloud? Being secretive helps nothing in here. Also, I think hmmmm is a reasonable person, and always agrees to well-explained and well thought out things. But regardless of that, he is not the only member of the team, and if someone insists on going to provoke hmmmm and getting provoked themselves, that is not my problem. Do you even have any other examples of this? And how can you prove that any of these would have been better for the project if having been accepted as-is?
Personally I would like to have had prestidigitator's stuff, but it apparently quite much overlaps with what hmmmm has been working on for a long time, and I personally know very well how hard and unproductive it is to try to incorporate some random stuff from somebody else to something you have designed from the ground up. Thus, I will not blame anyone in here.
In addition to that, you are basically sawing the branch on which you are sitting, if you unconditionally blame hmmmm for everything. That is not wise at all. Good thing hmmmm is emotionally tough enough to stand all this crap...
celeron55 wrote:And I must mention I don't like the word "team". What I mean by "team" is just "the people who do upstream stuff.
So anyway, I don't understand why I even bother trying to get people understand or do anything, but in case somebody is less of a professional insult-getter: In upstream development, at this exact moment, I would like to see somebody to help PilzAdam in the long term to decide on and develop the game content stuff
celeron55 wrote:and for example somebody to design and implement more advanced positioning in the Lua HUD interface.
celeron55 wrote:Do good stuff, but discuss about it beforehand on #minetest-dev. Such good stuff will be accepted.
And if you have lost all your hope to the core team, why are you even trying? You are just wasting your time and you know it. Go to hell and die. Or make a fork.
celeron55 wrote:My view overally on this is that people are just lazy to communicate properly and try to blame others for it. Me more or less included, but at least I admit it.
4aiman wrote:celeron55 wrote:You seem to consider the "core team" to be some oddly distant thing. And because of that, you want to work around the core team. I consider this ridiculous and irresponsible.
2 reasons:
Some of core devs ignore player's wishes and their inexperienced help.
4aiman wrote:Arrogance, which seem to prohibit to help less experienced but lets say "it's wrong" clauses.
4aiman wrote:Not distant? How many threads you read yourself? How many responses you've made?
mauvebic wrote:Hmmm designed it, he can fix it. Just like we are being asked to implement our own colored lighting.
mauvebic wrote:celeron55 wrote:and for example somebody to design and implement more advanced positioning in the Lua HUD interface.
Hmmm designed it, he can fix it.
celeron55 wrote:mauvebic wrote:Hmmm designed it, he can fix it. Just like we are being asked to implement our own colored lighting.
Stop being an unknowledgeable ass. Hmmmm just reworked it better from what some guy initially made.
mauvebic wrote:celeron55 wrote:mauvebic wrote:Hmmm designed it, he can fix it. Just like we are being asked to implement our own colored lighting.
Stop being an unknowledgeable ass. Hmmmm just reworked it better from what some guy initially made.
I'm not denying the work that was put into it, i saw the commit. But if we are expected to develop the features we want, why do you expect us to fix the features you guys put into it?
mauvebic wrote:why do you expect us to fix the features you guys put into it?
PilzAdam wrote:mauvebic wrote:celeron55 wrote:
Stop being an unknowledgeable ass. Hmmmm just reworked it better from what some guy initially made.
I'm not denying the work that was put into it, i saw the commit. But if we are expected to develop the features we want, why do you expect us to fix the features you guys put into it?
To fix / improve the HUD API feedback from modders is needed.
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