FOSS gamedev and creative worlds

by **Zeg9** » Wed Jul 03, 2013 09:07

We already have copper and bronze, but for the moment, bronze is made from copper and steel, which isn't the usual alloy...
So, what do you think about adding tin? It would replace steel for crafting bronze.
The pull request is there: https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/178

List of my mods · by **PilzAdam** » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:28

What we currently have as "bronze" is just an improved steel, so the name and not the recipe should be changed.

by **Casimir** » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:34

Bronze-tools last longer than steel-ones? . . .

List of my mods · by **PilzAdam** » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:34

Casimir wrote:Bronze-tools last longer than steel-ones? . . .

Yes, and they have the same speed. So basically the alloy makes the steel tools last longer.

by **Casimir** » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:40

That was a rhetorical question.

by **BlockMen** » Wed Jul 03, 2013 13:34

I think we have already too much ores. Copper, ok, but IMO bronze could get removed.

by **Zeg9** » Wed Jul 03, 2013 15:15

BlockMen wrote:I think we have already too much ores. Copper, ok, but IMO bronze could get removed.

Bronze is a bit more useful than gold.

by **Inocudom** » Wed Jul 03, 2013 16:24

Don't say that there are too many ores in the base game (in fact, I vouch for the addition of silver and mithril to the base game as well, with silver and gold being good for currency and mithril being good for armor.) It is a well known fact that most servers use the moreores mod.

by **BlockMen** » Wed Jul 03, 2013 17:39

Zeg9 wrote:
BlockMen wrote:I think we have already too much ores. Copper, ok, but IMO bronze could get removed.

Bronze is a bit more useful than gold.

It's more useful because the default game uses that material. In my opinion an "improved" steel is not needed and is just for one thing good: Fill up the creative inventory.

I agree that gold is kinda useless atm, but it is atleast an ore.

Inocudom wrote:Don't say that there are too many ores in the base game ...

What? Why shouldn't i say my opinion? We have now 28 tools (incl. swords) in default game that fill up the creative inventory a lot. With more ores that would be even more. IMO not good...

by **paramat** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 06:50

I voted no. I feel the copper / bronze addition is a mess. However it is a mess i don't want to correct by adding an even more boring and pointless ore such as tin, who can get excitied about tin? :D At least gold looks beautiful. Having more ores such as copper is perhaps okay with good reason (for wiring, piping and hi-tech mods?) but the addition of bronze and yet another set of tools was a mistake IMO, the upgrade is too subtle and unexciting and adds complication, i would rather go straight to mese and diamond tools.

Adding tin for a realistic bronze would mean tools less strong than steel, and therefore even more pointless. Personally i would like to see copper and bronze removed from the game.

by **Zeg9** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 08:38

One could add a remake of technic (wires and electric furnaces) to the default game. But, who would merge it ?
Also, mithril should be added, too. but that goes with a 3D armor mod, which isn't available in minetest game.
-> Add 3D armor to minetest_game ? I think that wouldn't hurt anyone.

by **mauvebic** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 08:41

The problem seems to be that for every new ore, a new tool set is added.

It might be wise to chose 2 or 3 ores that can be blacksmithed into the full range of tools, and leave the remaining ores to other uses like fuel or construction material.

List of my mods · by **PilzAdam** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:43

mauvebic wrote:The problem seems to be that for every new ore, a new tool set is added.

Thats wrong. Coal and copper dont have tools.

by **paramat** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 15:20

We already have a lot of high strength materials for tools: mese and diamond. Adding a 'hardened steel' is over crowding the tool sequence. Each step in the sequence is and should be a fundamental advancement and each material very different.
wood - stone - steel - diamond / mese
wood - stone - steel - improved steel - diamond / mese? No ... uhuh ... wrong! :P
Gold may not yet have a default use but it is a fundamental and beautiful material any sandbox game needs, as is diamond. Copper though doesn't seem fundamental enough.

by **mauvebic** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 16:14

PilzAdam wrote:
mauvebic wrote:The problem seems to be that for every new ore, a new tool set is added.

Thats wrong. Coal and copper dont have tools.

I haven't touched minetest_game in quite a while so I wouldn't know. But going on what's posted here, people don't want more ores since they think it will also lead to more tools.

by **Zeg9** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 16:38

paramat wrote:We already have a lot of high strength materials for tools: mese and diamond. Adding a 'hardened steel' is over crowding the tool sequence. Each step in the sequence is and should be a fundamental advancement and each material very different.
wood - stone - steel - diamond / mese
wood - stone - steel - improved steel - diamond / mese? No ... uhuh ... wrong! :P
Gold may not yet have a default use but it is a fundamental and beautiful material any sandbox game needs, as is diamond. Copper though doesn't seem fundamental enough.

Thinking like that, why not remove diamond tools ?
1) They're kind of like mese
2) Diamond isn't really used to make axes as far as I know

by **Inocudom** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 16:41

I guess gold, silver, copper, tin, and even mithril could be without their own tools. Instead, they could be useful as armor materials.

List of my mods · by **PilzAdam** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 19:07

mauvebic wrote:
PilzAdam wrote:
mauvebic wrote:The problem seems to be that for every new ore, a new tool set is added.

Thats wrong. Coal and copper dont have tools.

I haven't touched minetest_game in quite a while so I wouldn't know. But going on what's posted here, people don't want more ores since they think it will also lead to more tools.

Oh, so you are talking about things which you dont really know about. Great.

by **paramat** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 19:23

Zeg9 wrote:Thinking like that, why not remove diamond tools ?

Ah but diamond tools are so niiiiiiice and pretty and gorgeous to hold :) Also a fundamental material very different from the others.
Diamond completes the 4 'realistic' tool materials in the sequence, wood stone steel diamond. Mese is something a bit different being weird and possibly ET, and creates a 5 step sequence, personally i would slot it between steel and diamond, and making the strength of those 2 materials distinctly different so diamond becomes the super-material added above mese (or perhaps other way round).

by **mauvebic** » Thu Jul 04, 2013 19:43

PilzAdam wrote:Oh, so you are talking about things which you dont really know about. Great.

What part of:

mauvebic wrote:going on what's posted here

escaped your notice?

besides, plenty of people don't play minetest_game and it's not for lack of opinion on it.

by **Dopium** » Fri Jul 05, 2013 03:21

Well in my opinion as a steel fabricator IRL (welder/boilermaker) i can let everyone know that diamond, copper, tungsten, tin, alloy, forged steel and many others are all used in my trade.

Diamond and tungsten tip drill pieces are used for many things either to prevent glass from shattering or for the sheer strength to prevent the hardened steel from getting hot then brittle and failing when drilling concrete.

Also copper is used for welding while others like tin are also used to solder electrical components. Not to mention gold and silver plating being used for electrical components, thus why i use the default gold for mesecon recipes.

Having said all that i dont think more ores other then iron, tin, copper, bronze, silver, gold, diamond and mese to be added as then it would start to become an over kill.

However if tin and silver were to be added as default, personally i think as for ores it will make the game feel more complete. To me that keeps mining interesting other then 90% of the time looking at iron and coal, my 2 cents anyway.

by **LionsDen** » Fri Jul 05, 2013 03:38

I have the technic game mode installed and tend to play that. Before that came out, I used the mod and the dependencies most often. I find that I use iron and copper the most of all of the ores so I wouldn't mind copper in the default game.

by **vv221** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:11

LionsDen wrote:I wouldn't mind copper in the default game.

Copper is part of the default game ;)

by **Dopium** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 13:33

I would like to add to my other comment as i feel there is two sides to what people really want. As for more ores and meaning more tools added, i dont see a real problem unless you are using creative mode. If you're using more then 250 odd items with mods then you can expect clutter without a doubt

Using creative you can expect a cluttered inventory, hell even with some the most basic build's (iron and coal days) using creative i always manage to clutter my inventory with standard default items anyway.

I am no developer, but as a floor manager in my trade i think i can make good calls when i notice something and i really feel the development should revolve around survival mode rather then creative.

This leads me onto the one problem i have with recent builds(no offense as up most respect to the work that goes towards the development of minetest). However i find diamond has a great rarity ratio but set way to high on generation as its not hard at all to stock up on the more rarer ores. Personally id like to see more of a challenge side of things for the miners, i mean it should generate -600 to -30000 atleast.

I think the work that the devs put in is great but seems like alot of the community dont want any challenge or movement towards making a more complete and well thought default game mode.

This boils down to what i was saying a while back, enthusiast want to use mods rather then adding to the default while 70% of the players dont even know how to install mods. 90% of new registered users with 1 post majority of the time asks "where are the mobs" or ores?

All good for those who know how to code and remove ores they dont wont but you cant expect a 8 year old kid with no idea of coding to start installing mods no matter how easy it is, they just want to play of the bat. What im saying is, concentrating on the benefit of the development rather then some not wanting to remove some ores from the code. Easier to remove yourself when you already know how to or explain 15000 times over to "newbies" how to install them?...

My extra 2 cents and will probably ruffle some feathers but i think should be at least noted

by **Dan Duncombe** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 13:55

Well said Dopium!

by **Evergreen** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 14:36

Dopium wrote:I would like to add to my other comment as i feel there is two sides to what people really want. As for more ores and meaning more tools added, i dont see a real problem unless you are using creative mode. If you're using more then 250 odd items with mods then you can expect clutter without a doubt

Using creative you can expect a cluttered inventory, hell even with some the most basic build's (iron and coal days) using creative i always manage to clutter my inventory with standard default items anyway.

I am no developer, but as a floor manager in my trade i think i can make good calls when i notice something and i really feel the development should revolve around survival mode rather then creative.

This leads me onto the one problem i have with recent builds(no offense as up most respect to the work that goes towards the development of minetest). However i find diamond has a great rarity ratio but set way to high on generation as its not hard at all to stock up on the more rarer ores. Personally id like to see more of a challenge side of things for the miners, i mean it should generate -600 to -30000 atleast.

I think the work that the devs put in is great but seems like alot of the community dont want any challenge or movement towards making a more complete and well thought default game mode.

This boils down to what i was saying a while back, enthusiast want to use mods rather then adding to the default while 70% of the players dont even know how to install mods. 90% of new registered users with 1 post majority of the time asks "where are the mobs" or ores?

All good for those who know how to code and remove ores they dont wont but you cant expect a 8 year old kid with no idea of coding to start installing mods no matter how easy it is, they just want to play of the bat. What im saying is, concentrating on the benefit of the development rather then some not wanting to remove some ores from the code. Easier to remove yourself when you already know how to or explain 15000 times over to "newbies" how to install them?...

My extra 2 cents and will probably ruffle some feathers but i think should be at least noted

by **Zeg9** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 16:25

Dopium wrote: a big post

I agree with you.
Let's quote Evergreen:

Evergreen wrote:

by **Evergreen** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 16:36

Zeg9 wrote:
Dopium wrote: a big post

I agree with you.
Let's quote Evergreen:
Evergreen wrote:

x)

by **mauvebic** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 17:00

Well right now there are only two types of inventories, list and list with search. What about tree-map or category based inventories? There might be less clutter if things were organized according to use and/or constituent material.

by **roku** » Fri Jul 12, 2013 23:19

PilzAdam wrote:
Casimir wrote:Bronze-tools last longer than steel-ones? . . .

Yes, and they have the same speed. So basically the alloy makes the steel tools last longer.

It does make sense that bronze tools would last longer than steel tools, as long as we're talking about crucible steel (100% iron). There are other types of steel, some of which are made by adding carbon, others by using alloys. If we're trying to mix steel with some other metal to produce super steel there are a couple options here, including for example stainless steel which uses 10% chromium (though I don't think stainless steel is any sharper or stronger). Interestingly some steel alloys use copper (though only like 1%) and these alloys are significantly stronger than plain crucible steel.

Bronze is like 1 to 8 tin to copper and tin is significantly more rare than both copper and iron. I think I saw one mod that made bronze at a 1 to 4 ratio which seems to replicate this fairly well.

On another note couldn't bronze and copper be used as building materials, adding more variety as compared to just having super steel?

FOSS gamedev and creative worlds

Tin for 0.4.8 ?

Tin for 0.4.8 ?

Who is online